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Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:07 pm

Well that was why I was asking what they would have done... but you didn't really answer.

Do you really think if you started yelling and saying you didn't want to be flown off, and you started kicking and screaming that they would have tied you up and drug you into the helicopter?

There is a difference between the final call being theirs, and you being a reasonable person and agreeing to their request to rescue you.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mattyj » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:39 pm

Or they could, you know, wait until he gets back down to write him a citation like they do for other high-risk situations such as trespassing on bridges and skyscrapers.

I very much doubt that they would try to cite him, but whether they'd start tazing his ass for disobeying has nothing to do with their legal right to give orders ensuring everyone's safety.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby Ze » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:44 am

If Warren Harding spent less time climbing and more time Presidentialing, maybe we wouldn't have the crippling unemployment that allows SPers to post on forums all day. And save me time. Thanks again, Warren.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby lcarreau » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:15 pm

mrchad9 wrote:
Do you really think if you started yelling and saying you didn't want to be flown off, and you started kicking and screaming that they would have tied you up and drug you into the helicopter?


The point is ... (was) being made that each circumstance is DIFFERENT --- what happens to President Harding or Tanya Harding or some RICH TEXAN
may not happen to a dirt-bag enthusiast of climbing. We're talking 'bout TWO different things here, and different ways of responding.

Gotta wonder if the OP of this thread is laughing right now --- I know I am because I believe in Free Choice. :wink:

And YES Chad, they would have taken the individual kicking and screaming to the FUNNY FARM ... where life is beautiful all the time ...

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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby MarkDidier » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:20 pm

lcarreau wrote:...I believe in Free Choice.


Sorry Larry...couldn't resist! But you walked into it... :lol:

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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby surgent » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:29 am

mrchad9 wrote:Well that is what you said. Either the final call is yours, or they are taking you against your will. And that is kidnapping.

Since you agreed to be rescued, you really have no basis for saying what would have happened if you had steadfastly refused.


Point to ponder: all rescues are overseen by a law-enforcement agency. The rescuers can certainly back off if the subject demands it. Then it becomes the judgement of the sergeant or whoever is on scene as to what to do.

I think you are trying to foresee a scenario that would be extremely unlikely to happen. If you need a rescue, you'll probably be damn grateful they show up. If you were out hiking past your due-back time and your wife/mom/bff called the sheriffs to go find you, and they find you happily hiking along a trail in good shape, then yes, you'll get the quick once-over but likely be left alone.

Making a claim for kidnapping is a stretch.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mrchad9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:36 am

surgent wrote:
mrchad9 wrote:Well that is what you said. Either the final call is yours, or they are taking you against your will. And that is kidnapping.

Since you agreed to be rescued, you really have no basis for saying what would have happened if you had steadfastly refused.


Point to ponder: all rescues are overseen by a law-enforcement agency. The rescuers can certainly back off if the subject demands it. Then it becomes the judgement of the sergeant or whoever is on scene as to what to do.

I think you are trying to foresee a scenario that would be extremely unlikely to happen. If you need a rescue, you'll probably be damn grateful they show up. If you were out hiking past your due-back time and your wife/mom/bff called the sheriffs to go find you, and they find you happily hiking along a trail in good shape, then yes, you'll get the quick once-over but likely be left alone.

Making a claim for kidnapping is a stretch.

mconnell said that the reality is that if someone doesn't want a recuse that SAR then has no alternative but to go home. You disagreed with that statement. You said the final call was made by the ops commander.

So which is it? I find it very unlikely that they will pull you out if you demand to be left alone. If anyone has any actual documentation that anything else is true then I'd love to see it. If you can show me anything to support your comment that the ops commander and not the subject has the final say then I'd be happy to learn from it.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby lcarreau » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:18 am

surgent wrote: If you were out hiking past your due-back time and your wife/mom/bff called ...


What the hell does "bff" mean ... is it anything like MILF ?


MarkDidier wrote:
Sorry Larry...couldn't resist! But you walked into it... :lol:



I liked them BETTER when they wore upside-down flowerpots ..


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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mattyj » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:11 am

mrchad9 wrote:So which is it? I find it very unlikely that they will pull you out if you demand to be left alone. If anyone has any actual documentation that anything else is true then I'd love to see it. If you can show me anything to support your comment that the ops commander and not the subject has the final say then I'd be happy to learn from it.


The problem is that the answer depends on some blurred lines and legal gray areas.

You have the right to refuse medical treatment at any time. Ambulance, hospital or mountainside, you are free to revoke consent and walk away whenever you want.

There are circumstances in which law enforcement can order you to take action, and I'm not familiar with all their ins and outs. Dispersing an unlawful assembly, evacuating areas due to fire danger, whatever. Hypothetically, if they decide to evacuate a wilderness area, I have no idea if they can legally order you to step onto a helicopter or if they're limited to making you hike out under your own power. May well be something that's never been tested in court, but it's relevant to the discussion.

I have never heard of a law enforcement agent involved with SAR forcing someone to accept rescue. In that sense, if you wave them off they will leave you alone. At the same time, when people are in situations that present clear hazards to themselves or others, law enforcement can order them to leave. In that sense, you can be compelled to cooperate with a rescue. It might sound like a silly distinction, but they're normally viewed as two different issues - just like how the NPS never "charges" for rescue, but they can issue you a citation for creating a dangerous situation or some such.

If you're swimming above Nevada Falls and a ranger orders you out, clearly they're not forcing you to accept a rescue.

There was a story a couple years ago about some hikers in Grand Canyon who activated their PLB 3 times over 4 days or something. Third time, NPS stuck them on a helicopter and flew them out of the backcountry. Were they forced to accept rescue, or merely kicked out of the backcountry for being dumbasses?

Consider the two guys who got stuck rapping El Cap last year. Person A rapped the wrong way and was unable to re-ascend his rope, Person B was unable to rescue him. NPS flew up to the top, dropped a line and hauled A up. NPS issued both parties citations for creating a hazardous condition, which requires them to appear in court, answer to a judge, etc. If, at that point, B had waved off rescue decided to keep rapping, NPS would have had every right to say "no, you're coming with us." Compelled to accept rescue?

I was on a search in way rural northern california where the subject was actively hiding from and evading us. I blew $100 of my personal money on gas to get there and another $50 for a hotel when I realized what a bad driver I was going home at 2AM. Probably par for the course for dozens of other searchers who showed up. National Guard helo on scene all day going through ungodly amounts of jet fuel. In the end, I don't believe he was ever charged with anything - and really, what law did he break? If we had found him wandering around in the woods and he refused rescue, there's similarly nothing anyone could have done. Arrest him? On what grounds? Frustrating, but that's the way it is sometimes.

As you can see it's a complicated issue.
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mrchad9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:25 am

Why were you trying to rescue someone who was evading you? Sounds like they didn't need it, and certainly I'd have just gone on home.

Yeah I don't see why he should have to pay if he didn't want it. Even folks who DO want the rescue don't have to pay!
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mattyj » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:23 am

Well, it's not like we knew that at the time. He was reported missing by concerned family, we went looking. After multiple days of intense efforts, the search was called off. The rest only came out later when he eventually came back out to civilization.

But the point wasn't that he was never charged (i.e. billed), the point was that he was never charged with anything (i.e. he did nothing illegal).

Do you always pick the most irrelevant parts of of a comment to nitpick over?
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby mrchad9 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:37 am

I wasn't trying to nitpick anything. It sounded like an interesting event and I was just curious what in the world had happened.

If it was irrelevant then why did you tell the story!
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby Buz Groshong » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 pm

mattyj wrote:Well, it's not like we knew that at the time. He was reported missing by concerned family, we went looking. After multiple days of intense efforts, the search was called off. The rest only came out later when he eventually came back out to civilization.

But the point wasn't that he was never charged (i.e. billed), the point was that he was never charged with anything (i.e. he did nothing illegal).

Do you always pick the most irrelevant parts of of a comment to nitpick over?


It's what we all do! It's what Off Route is all about! :roll:
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby dskoon » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:51 pm

mattyj wrote:Well, it's not like we knew that at the time. He was reported missing by concerned family, we went looking. After multiple days of intense efforts, the search was called off. The rest only came out later when he eventually came back out to civilization

Do you always pick the most irrelevant parts of of a comment to nitpick over?


Yeah, as a matter of fact, he does. Expert in semantics, he is. . . :lol:
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Re: Texan requests helicopter rescue from Mt. St. Helens

Postby artrock23 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:56 pm

mattyj wrote: As you can see it's a complicated issue.


Don't worry, the experts at SP will unravel the intricacies and make perfect sense of it! :D
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