Rick, it might (or might not) surprise you to know that a lot of people with spinal cord injuries also end up with PTSD. In SCI rehab I was assigned a psychologist. Talking to her was extremely helpful. I'm gonna leave it at that.

Why worry about what random internet jackasses think (not pointing any fingers here, except maybe at myself ) ? Shouldn't all this stay between you and your therapist ?

rhyang wrote: Shouldn't all this stay between you and your therapist ?

Negative!

He assigned me this task actually. Part of the therapy.

He suggested to openly recruit the thoughts of those out there that I deal with on a regular basis on this "numbers" deal. It is suppose to help me understand my part/non-responsibility in all this.

“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”


Me, I like numbers & goals and I think it can be done in a very healthy manner.
But, I’m still trying to figure out what "42" means

Fact is that this "numbers" deal includes the masses that are growing world wide to partake in this climbing game.

With the growing numbers, comes the many negative environmental aspects as well.

I noticed this just last week on my latest trip up the EB of Whitney.

I couldn't believe the amount of folks camped up at Iceberg.

Once we got to the top, I shit my britches when I encountered all the folks up there. Then a double dump occurred when I saw the line of folks coming up the trail.

BTW: I do not camp there nor at UBSL. Got my secret spot that never sees anyone else other than myself and my group.


Many aspects that go along with this "numbers" game.

Agree that using lists and numbers can be done in a healthy manner. It can motivate you to go out more, and provide a sense of accomplishment.

I enjoy using lists of peaks, as it results in me heading to some areas I might not otherwise go. I am often pleasantly surprised and please with how enjoyable an outing was that I might not have otherwise gone on.

Be happy all those folks are allowed to congregate in specific areas of Mount Whitney. If they weren't allowed, a few might be seeking out and spilling over into your location.

Chief,

I guess I see the numbers game in a couple of different ways.

First, the negative side. Whether it's in business, athletics (including climbing), or anything else, people who live in first world countries where they don't have to concern themselves too much with such mundane things as safety, shelter, and food, tend to use numbers to measure their personal success. It's a constant competition for the corner office, the biggest house, the most expensive suit, the best car, etc. Nothing really wrong with this if that's how they want to live.....to each his own. It can, however, become a problem when a one upmanship attitude leads people to jump in over their heads. When that happens, they can't pay their big mortages, they run up ridiculous cc debt. In the case of climbers, that get in over their heads, they sometimes put others at risk or wind up getting hurt or killled.

On the positive side, the rehab folks at Walter Reed push wounded warriors to take on physical challenges that initially seem well beyond their capability. Along the way they are encouraged to "keep score" so to speak. This as resulted in some tremendous success stories among amputees and troopers with severe brain injuries. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with recovering addicts counting the days since their last fall or with obese folks using the numbers game to advantage in their personal struggle.

So, I guess I think the issue with the "numbers game" comes down to people's own motivation. For some people keeping score is healthy and very helpful. For others, it's a product of jealousy and insecurity.

BTW, in terms of dealing with the loss of personal friends on the battlefield, I've always found it very helpful to remember them in life rather than in death. I'm sure you know what I mean.

mrchad9 wrote:Be happy all those folks are allowed to congregate in specific areas of Mount Whitney. If they weren't allowed, a few might be seeking out and spilling over into your location.

Saw the same deal occurring on either side of the Pals and then up at the Hulk the last few weeks.

Funny thing though, we encountered not a soul on the NF choss pile nor the ridge line of Mendel or on the loose as shit descent back to camp at the upper lakes on the Darwin Bench, two weeks ago.

I wonder why that was. Maybe it is the suedo bust ass approach hike up to Lamarck Col from N Lake?

To be down right honest with ya Gary, as far as the "tick list", summit numbers and the ratings deal, no.

I always have and do so today, seek the aesthetic process of it all, regardless the climb or route.

I never was a summit dude. Again, the process was and always has been my game. Those that have climbed with me, know that.

Maybe that is why I have enjoyed the adventure of the FA process or working what was once strictly an aid line into a clean aid line.

Many a time when someone approaches me regarding a route at a crag and ask what the rating is, I will tell em it is just another climb and that ratings are relative.

Anyone that has been at this game for a while will clearly understand that statement. An Alan Bartlett, Vern Clevenger, Bob Kamps or Tom Higgins etal BC 5.9 or 5.10 clearly defines that opinion.

I’ve always been a numbers guy. I like numbers. Gaining a certain amount of elevation in a certain amount of time is a numbers game. So is completing a rock climb of a certain grade, or lifting a weight for some number of reps (or once at one’s complete max.) Numbers give us a way to measure what we can do, to set goals and to track our progress.

I think the problems arise when the numbers are given too much importance. In sport, for example, numbers easily quantify certain aspects of performance but other aspects are harder to measure numerically. Form, ease and beauty of movement, flow, many elements of style cannot be defined with numbers. So a person who is obsessed with numbers might be led away from these most rewarding aspects of an activity like climbing.

So I would say that aspects of a sport like climbing which are more experiential are very difficult to measure with numbers. How, after all, can one grade a transcendental experience? One can only look back with wonder at what happenned.

On the other hand using numbers and paying attention to grades has helped me to do things I would not otherwise have done. They are a guide, not a goal.

Great points I completely concur with FORT and KRIS!

Everyone understands the numbers. Things that really require brain cells:

Most aesthetic
most fun
most interesting
most committing
most dangerous

On the other hand using numbers and paying attention to grades has helped me to do things I would not otherwise have done. They are a guide, not a goal.

The lists thing doesn't have any appeal to me, but I know several good people who are into county highpoints, state highpoints, and prominence peaks, and it seems to keep them happy and focused. While I can't share that interest, it doesn't seem to be doing me or anybody else any harm.

To me, chasing some list would mean making myself climb peaks that don't interest me when I could instead be climbing something else, but others enjoy all the variety, even the tree-covered bumps that not many others care about.

As long as the person's not going around waving his list like some trophy, I don't really care.

Kris,

I believe that Jan's recent completion of his life long achievement quest on the B-Y is fine example of your post btw.

From my personal interactions with both you and Jan, you both are completely into the process/aesthetic value of the climb and not the summit nor numbers deal.

Goes hand in hand with the latter portion of FORT's last post.

Probably why I enjoy hanging around with the two of ya's.

I originally came to mountaineering from distance (foot) racing where numbers are obviously important and if you want be good at, you must be obsessive about them (numbers), split numbers, track work, PR's, age competition, etc. I can remember at first keeping track of my accumulated elevation gain, setting certain objective time records, etc......even watching my watch for accelerated gain and descent.

Once I gave all that up (age helps you slow down and smell the roses a bit)....I so much more enjoy the outdoor experience, see, hear and smell things I did not notice before.

This topic has been on my mind recently also. Between dealing with a nagging arm injury and only another month or so of good weather left in the NW I've been really anxious about what routes I still want to get on this summer.

A good friend and climbing partner from New York came out in July and we did a bunch of fun stuff together as usual. Towards the end of the trip though I started thinking about what routes we weren't able to fit in and getting down on myself for not being able to climb harder.

Then at the top of North Early Winter Spire we found this page in the summit register. I didn't know Bruce personally but through the forum it's beyond obvious how much people cared about him. It reminded me the people we climb with will always be much more important than what routes and grades we climb.

Here's a gem from the late Michael Reardon...

There are those who rock climb that only want to know the physical ratings and not the mental. Rock climbing is more than either, it is the balance of both, with a dash of spirit mixed in.

For every "hard" route I've soloed, I can think of at least three "easy" ones I would never. This may be from the type of climb, the weather in the air, or something else that stops the feet from leaving the ground.