Why was there a 15 year period, seemingly from about 1965 to 1980, give or take, when real alpine climbers wore full-shank mountain boots on alpine rock climbs? It seems really strange. I saw a video of a guy climbing in the Wilder Kaiser in slippers in the '50s, and he described how in the 1970s he went back and did the climb again in "modern style," which for him, meant mountain boots.

What started this trend and what ended it? I never liked climbing rock in heavy boots so I come from the point of view that I don't really understand it. Was it more of a European thing or American?

Thanks for any insight!
--Michael

I can only speak from my own perspective.

Equipment was heavier so carrying an extra pair of shoes along was just that much added weight. In addition, on alpine climbs the time spent changing from mountain boots to rock shoes back and forth came into play. Much as taking crampons on and off leads to climbing rock pitches with them on. There is also the issue of big, wet, muddy boots in a small pack.

We used to go to the rock climbing areas and practice climbing harder stuff in boots. I still prefer stiff boots for edging.

An interesting aspect for alpine climbs in the Alps - a Swiss friend says that he takes each (UIAA) grade down at least one grade for climbing in rock shoes vs the grade as established in boots.

Then again, he and I did a climb this summer on which the crux involved foot jams in vertical cracks. We both had problems with our feet getting stuck - after the pitch, he commented on how much easier it is wearing boots...

Rock shoes weren't all that great until the 1980's when the sticky rubber Boreal Fires came out. The fit and performance were not all that good, and the difference in climbing performance wasn't that different between rock shoes and a well-fitting pair of mountain boots.

Compared to rock shoes, mountain boots were warmer, waterproof, often more comfortable, and you didn't have to mess around changing footwear and carrying extra footwear.

MVS... good question. I remember Jeff Lowe made a comment in one of his books that " I went 2 years climbing only in MT boots" or something like that.

I climb in Boots when I need to use crampons..... keeps your feet warm.

Climbing slick granite in em sucks, but its much better now that they have sticky rubber and rands.

Bob Kamps put up Chingadera (sp?) at Tahquitz (5.11) using Muir Pavettas. (a hiking boot) in 63. That fact just blows my mind. And he hand drilled the bolts. His partner, Mark Powell wore Kronhoffers, and he had shattered his ankle and it was fused!

I feel lucky to have started when boots were shitty, it made you learn good footwork.

Today with the great boots we have (La Sportivas rule) people climb 5.12 and they have poor footwork.

I remember when I started in the 70s the old salts said the only way to learn to climb was in big boots, it made one learn how to stand. Made sense really, smearing in big boots is not to be recommended. Then I bought a pair of EBs and never looked down after that.
Alpine stuff is still in boots with me - other stuff, in the Kaiser for example is in rocks shoes usually.
But to go back to your post - people used to climb in pumps (a la Collin Kirkus) in the UK and in the Alps in those rope soled things.

Thanks for the info. It definitely intimidates me to see the things people did in real mountain boots. To me, at this point, anything harder than 5.6 or the odd 5.7 move would feel pretty insecure in big boots! It sounds like there was a sweet spot for 20 years between available equipment and overall technique that made this the rational choice. It certainly still is the right choice for some things...when I started climbing I knew that I *should* be able to climb rock in boots.

The case of these non-snow areas like the Wilder Kaiser/Dolomites seems odd because these areas had decades of hard climbing in rope soled shoes. Unless a bunch of people got frostbite on the toes, it's hard to see why they'd switch. I know Gabriele did all his hard climbs in boots, big tip of the glass to him!

Guyzo wrote:
Bob Kamps put up Chingadera (sp?) at Tahquitz (5.11) using Muir Pavettas. (a hiking boot) in 63. That fact just blows my mind.

I learned to climb in these boots in about 1976 when I was 13. Pivetta was the manufacturer, Muir Trail the model. I still have the boots in my closet, can't bear to throw them out.

Before about 1970, most crampons didn't have front points. A lot of travel on steep snow was accomplished by kicking (and maybe cutting) steps. Kicking steps is a lot easier in stiff heavy boots.

Heavy boots can also be vastly more comfortable for steep talus and scree descents; for the latter, they cut into the slope like skis.

MoapaPk wrote:Before about 1970, most crampons didn't have front points.

1970??? Frontpoints came about in the '30s.

chriss wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:Before about 1970, most crampons didn't have front points.

1970??? Frontpoints came about in the '30s.

And most crampons sold before the 1970s had none.

borutb wrote:Climbing grade VI in heavy (Vibram) boots is a requirement for the mountain guide examination nowadays.
A very good exercize! Especially for smearing
Ankle flexibility! BTW, cramponing without the front points also requires ankle flexibility (though laterally).

H. Buhl describes climbing with felt soled shoes in the 1930s (Kaiser climbing!).
Barefoot climbing was also something! (still demanded at one point in Saxonian alpine education).

I myself do not mind climbing up to grade V/V+ in Vibrams (though once criticized for that as I recently started up the Spik direct without lightweight shoes).

Another thing is that the former boots were not as stiff as today's ones.

And there was (in the 70s) f.i. the "Terray/Saussois" lightweight Vibrams designed for technical limestone routes (VII).

There still are light weight vibrams for technical rock.

My 1st crampons, purchased 1969 to 1970(?).

Crampons with true front points ("lobster claws" in then-current lingo) were still rather unusual.

MoapaPk wrote:My 1st crampons, purchased 1969 to 1970(?).

Crampons with true front points ("lobster claws" in then-current lingo) were still rather unusual.

But front pointing was certainly wide spread in the UK, I´m thinking of Scottish winter climbing, in the early 70´s - or so I think.

charles wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:My 1st crampons, purchased 1969 to 1970(?).

Crampons with true front points ("lobster claws" in then-current lingo) were still rather unusual.

But front pointing was certainly wide spread in the UK, I´m thinking of Scottish winter climbing, in the early 70´s - or so I think.

Let's put it this way: crampons with true front points were not the majority of crampons purchased before the early 1970s. Lobster-claw crampons were regarded as specialized, because people were still of a mind that the "average" person should ascend really steep snow by cutting steps, kicking mightily, or having very flexible ankles. (Well, at least in the USA; Scotland has fewer glaciers.) Yes indeed, when I drove by Chapel Pond Cliffs in 1974, there were people ice-climbing with front points. In a similar vein, the crampons used for ice climbing nowadays (monopoints, 14 points, what have you) are viewed as somewhat specialized.

In the USA, the transition point was about the mid-70s.

MoapaPk wrote:

charles wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:My 1st crampons, purchased 1969 to 1970(?).

Crampons with true front points ("lobster claws" in then-current lingo) were still rather unusual.

But front pointing was certainly wide spread in the UK, I´m thinking of Scottish winter climbing, in the early 70´s - or so I think.

Let's put it this way: crampons with true front points were not the majority of crampons purchased before the early 1970s. Lobster-claw crampons were regarded as specialized, because people were still of a mind that the "average" person should ascend really steep snow by cutting steps, kicking mightily, or having very flexible ankles. (Well, at least in the USA; Scotland has fewer glaciers.) Yes indeed, when I drove by Chapel Pond Cliffs in 1974, there were people ice-climbing with front points. In a similar vein, the crampons used for ice climbing nowadays (monopoints, 14 points, what have you) are viewed as somewhat specialized.

In the USA, the transition point was about the mid-70s.

Indeed Scotland does have fewer glaciers