Congratulations for a very well-written historical account of the early years of guiding. It was very interesting to read about the early restrictions in Chamonix to "out of town" guides if they attempted to come with clients to climb. You might be surprised that such restrictions have been in force at the end of the 20th century in the US, at least for climbs of Mt Rainier.
At the time of our climb in 1999, we were told that we could not bring a guide to climb the normal route. Climbing parties had to use the guides provided by Rainier Mountaineering (RMI) which had the monopoly for guiding. Moreover, we were also required to take a one-day compulsory snow & ice course prior to the climb. I should point out that the guides who were assigned to us were very experienced!
I'd encourage you to include a reference to the Mazibrada article in the January 2013 issue of Mountain Pro, from which some sentences/phrases of your article seem to have been taken, verbatim (well, unless you ARE in fact Andrew Mazibrada yourself!).
Thank you for this remark. However, I'm not going to include a reference to this article, because I've never read this article untill now. Therefore, it is impossible that I've taken phrases or sentences from mr. Mazibrada's article.
My article is an updated version of an article I published on SP in 2011 or 2012 (I'm not quite sure anymore). Some sentences are indeed more or less exactly the same, but as these sentences were already in my previous article (long before mr. Mazibrada's article in 2013), it's impossible for me to have copied them. Perhaps it is even the other way round (which, perhaps I might ask him).
Best regards, Koen
Ahhh, fair enough, then. Those parallels were too close to be a coincidence, so I would say Mr. M has been up to no good. I didn't realize you had a prior article.
Yes, I had. Earlier this year I had removed the previous article as I was reworking it in order to get it published (at which, untill now, I have not yet succeeded, that's also the reason why I posted it back here on SP).But it's a good thing you mentioned this, thank you!
Thanks for your aticle, it is fantastic!
On the part that says: "Tourists could not choose the number of guides which they thought would be sufficient. Even in 1872 the Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix still proclaimed that “for the ascent of Mont Blanc the guide-chef will assign at least three guides, or two guides and a porter per traveler.”[9]"
I red the original text (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t9t156v14;view=1up;seq=363) and the year is not 1872 but it is 1862.
It is not pretty clear for me and may be I got a mistake.
Please comfirm who is right.
(sorry for my english is not good)
regards,
Nicolás
Thanks, really glad you like the article!
About your remark, you are correct. However, and this can explain the confusion, not every one was able to choose the number of guides he/she wanted to hire. For 'normal' mountaineers/tourists the number of guides was fixed (even after 1879 according to the rules of the Compagnie des guides : art. 33), which is also indicated in the book of John Ball (edition 1870) on page 194.
Only for those who could prove their extensive experience in mountaineering exceptions were possible ('Members of the Alpine Club are exempted from all restrictions ...' Ball, page 194), and a few years later the choice of how many guides to take was made free for every one, but it was the tourist's responsability if he decided to take less guides than recommended by the Compagnie, and the Compagnie or the guide was always able to refuse (Règlement et Tarifs de la Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix, 1879, art. 34).
JanG - Nov 12, 2014 9:33 pm - Voted 10/10
Very Comprehensive OverviewCongratulations for a very well-written historical account of the early years of guiding. It was very interesting to read about the early restrictions in Chamonix to "out of town" guides if they attempted to come with clients to climb. You might be surprised that such restrictions have been in force at the end of the 20th century in the US, at least for climbs of Mt Rainier.
At the time of our climb in 1999, we were told that we could not bring a guide to climb the normal route. Climbing parties had to use the guides provided by Rainier Mountaineering (RMI) which had the monopoly for guiding. Moreover, we were also required to take a one-day compulsory snow & ice course prior to the climb. I should point out that the guides who were assigned to us were very experienced!
JanG
KoenVl - Nov 14, 2014 11:33 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Very Comprehensive OverviewThanks a lot for the nice comment!
I am indeed suprised by these restrictions on Mt. Rainier. Are these still applied today?
Cheers,
Koen
chugach mtn boy - Nov 18, 2014 12:16 pm - Voted 10/10
Additional referenceI'd encourage you to include a reference to the Mazibrada article in the January 2013 issue of Mountain Pro, from which some sentences/phrases of your article seem to have been taken, verbatim (well, unless you ARE in fact Andrew Mazibrada yourself!).
KoenVl - Nov 18, 2014 1:05 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Additional referenceThank you for this remark. However, I'm not going to include a reference to this article, because I've never read this article untill now. Therefore, it is impossible that I've taken phrases or sentences from mr. Mazibrada's article.
My article is an updated version of an article I published on SP in 2011 or 2012 (I'm not quite sure anymore). Some sentences are indeed more or less exactly the same, but as these sentences were already in my previous article (long before mr. Mazibrada's article in 2013), it's impossible for me to have copied them. Perhaps it is even the other way round (which, perhaps I might ask him).
Best regards, Koen
chugach mtn boy - Nov 18, 2014 5:05 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Additional referenceAhhh, fair enough, then. Those parallels were too close to be a coincidence, so I would say Mr. M has been up to no good. I didn't realize you had a prior article.
KoenVl - Nov 19, 2014 3:30 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Additional referenceYes, I had. Earlier this year I had removed the previous article as I was reworking it in order to get it published (at which, untill now, I have not yet succeeded, that's also the reason why I posted it back here on SP).But it's a good thing you mentioned this, thank you!
nbrunori - Jan 7, 2019 11:54 am - Hasn't voted
I guess a little mistakeThanks for your aticle, it is fantastic!
On the part that says: "Tourists could not choose the number of guides which they thought would be sufficient. Even in 1872 the Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix still proclaimed that “for the ascent of Mont Blanc the guide-chef will assign at least three guides, or two guides and a porter per traveler.”[9]"
I red the original text (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t9t156v14;view=1up;seq=363) and the year is not 1872 but it is 1862.
It is not pretty clear for me and may be I got a mistake.
Please comfirm who is right.
(sorry for my english is not good)
regards,
Nicolás
KoenVl - Jan 9, 2019 2:36 am - Hasn't voted
Re: I guess a little mistakeThanks, really glad you like the article!
About your remark, you are correct. However, and this can explain the confusion, not every one was able to choose the number of guides he/she wanted to hire. For 'normal' mountaineers/tourists the number of guides was fixed (even after 1879 according to the rules of the Compagnie des guides : art. 33), which is also indicated in the book of John Ball (edition 1870) on page 194.
Only for those who could prove their extensive experience in mountaineering exceptions were possible ('Members of the Alpine Club are exempted from all restrictions ...' Ball, page 194), and a few years later the choice of how many guides to take was made free for every one, but it was the tourist's responsability if he decided to take less guides than recommended by the Compagnie, and the Compagnie or the guide was always able to refuse (Règlement et Tarifs de la Compagnie des Guides de Chamonix, 1879, art. 34).
I hope this answers your question?
Kind regards,
Koen