First of all your comment doens't make much sense. It's not because you hate (for I don't know which reasons) the British that they can't have created modern mountaineering. If you would have read the entire article (which I doubt you have done), you would have noticed that I say that mountaineering did already occur before the British came in the 1840's-1850's. Not only in the Alps, but also elsewhere. But, for various reasons (which you can read in the article) these mountaineering activities can't really be called modern mountaineering, more some sort of 'pre-alpinism'. Modern mountaineering, as we know it still today, was 'invented' by these British alpinists.
And reminding me in many ways how the conquest of the Pyrenees was made, if not in majority, by a lot of Englishmen as well, and amongst them the unmissable Henry Russell...
Thanks!
I'm not very familiar with the history of mountain climbing in the Pyrenees, but as far as I know, and as you -rightly- say, it was quiet similar, only a little bit later. Just as it was, for example, in the Dauphiné or the eastern Alps.
By the way, vey interesting article you wrote about Henry Russel!
Cheers,
Koen.
Thanks for the vote !
About British "Pyreneism", and out of any kind of chauvinism, I disagree only slightly about the word "later", I think it is indeed the opposite. Partly perhaps because the English presence in the South West of France and especially in Pau was already since long (read this wiki page, chapter British tourism), partly also because the french Club Alpin was initiated by the Société Ramond (founded by Russell !) being itself inspired by the British Alpine Club.
You might be also interested in knowing the character who was Anne Lister, first climber of the Vignemale but famous for other reasons :)
I just saw Tomek and Peterbud comments too. True that British also explored massively the Tatras, for example Robert Townsend. Hungarians played also a huge role in that regions, fortunate notables could travel a lot bit similarly like the British did.
You're right! Mountaineering in the Pyrenees didn't really came later, or at least not as late as in the Dauphiné, the Eastern and Italian Alps, or other mountain ranges in Europa. From the beginning (late 1840's, but mostly from the 1850's and 1860's onwards) there were mountaineers in the Pyrenees, scaling mountains. However, the Western Alps (specially the Berner Oberland, Wallis and the Chamonix region) were far more frequently visited (specially by British mountaineers, but also by other nationalities). So when I say later, I rahter want to say that the Pyrenees became more popular at a later time. Although there were already mountaineering activities from the beginning. But for various reasons most mountaineers, as well as tourists rather chose to go to the Western Alps, instead of the Pyrenees (for example because Switzerland or Chamonix was far more easy to reach, or 'but the very reverse of all this is found in the Pyrenees.With the exception of one or two of the hotels at Bagnéres de Bigorre, the whole of the Pyrenees does not contain one really good hotel; and whatever may be the attractions of a country, it will never be much visited so long as the accomodation for travellers is bad.'(from Inglis H.D. 'Switzerland: the South of France, and the Pyrenees in 1830' , Volume 2, 1835.) Whether true or not, travellers only got this sort of information, and therefore their choice of travelling destination was in large degree based on such judgements. But you are absolutely right when you say that alpinism in the Pyrenees didn't occure later then in the Western Alps.
About the Tatres and other eastern Europe mountain ranges, the British did indeed play a large role in exploring these ranges, as well as they scaled many mountains there. But, this was only later, after mountaineering came to the Western Alps (or to the Pyrenees :)). And it's indeed correct that many locals (mostly scientists) did climb many mountains in these regions, but they mostly did it for other reasons as the British mountaineers, and the number of mountaineers was far less in these countries. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, British mountaineers really did create modern mountaineering (in a way we know it still today). But once again, mountaineering did already occur before the British came, and it was also done by many other persons of other nationalities, but for the reasons given in the article modern mountaineering only came with the British (after which this modern mountaineering was adopted by mountaineers all over the world).
But it's very interesting to see why, for example, some Hungarians went on to scale some mountains in Hungary, and how this could be compared with the reasons why the British climbed. And further, how British mountaineers have influenced (direct (climbing over there) or indirect (by climbing in general, or thanks to the foundation of the Alpine club etc.) local mountaineers, or the opposite, how these locals influenced British and other strangers when they came to these countries.
Still much resaerch to be done :)
But one can say that mountaineering did occur on different places at roughly the same time (however, the Western Alps, will probably come out first, as most mountaineers went there, and from very early on) and that British mountaineers were the driving power behind the birth and growth of mountaineering, but they were definitly not alone, as others played their role in all this as well.
About Anne Lister, when reading about her on Wikipedia, she did indeed some mountaineering trips, but she's certainly famous for her mountaineering exploits :)
That's all very interesting ! When you tell about hotels or places where tourists used to go (often places with natural warms spas, this was the main thing that motivated building resorts at that time), it was very early Cauterets in the Pyrenees. Partly also because Monte Perdido was believed to be to the top of the range. Afterwhile the roof of the Pyrenees moved to the Aneto and Luchon became the new fashionable headquarters of Pyreneism; Cauterets remained popular but lost its prominence. And what you state about locals people climbing tops for other purpose than tourism (for "useful" jobs) is particularly true, all of them were geographers, botanists, geologs, scientists, meteorologists, triangulation officers from the army (two of them in particular accomplished genuine exploits that remained in the dark for very long) or in the closest case painters like Franz Schrader...
Where did you get this passion for mountain history from ? I don't know if you read French but if one day the book of Henri Beraldi titled "Hundred years in the Pyrenees" is available in English, you should savour it as it deserves, that's a truely passionating book and easy to read about history of Pyreneism. Lots of references about local English tourism in it.
p.s: did you come across this TR ? :)
I've always focussed on the Western Alps, but now that you started about the Pyrenees, I feel the urge of reading more about the history of mountaineering in the Pyrenees :)
Maybe when I have a bit more time this summer I'll try to find and read a bit about it, and maybe write a little comparison between mountaineering in the Western Alps and in the Pyrenees (By the way, I always refer to the Western Alps, as the development of mountaineering occured first over there, and the view of alpinism was quiet different from the kind of alpinism that was dominant in the Eastern Alps (specially from the 1870's-1880's onwards)(more focussed on though rock climbing, with many more climbers who came from the lower classes)).
Where my passion for mountaineering comes from? Difficult question. Actually I don't really know. As a historian I'm off course interested in history in general. And it's probably the combination of a passion for the mountains and this interest for history in general which brought me to mountaineering history. But I really started with this mountaineering history about two years ago. I needed to write a task for school (for my history studies) about travelling between Flanders and Switzerland in the 19th century. This hadn't got anything to do with mountaineering history, but it was my father who told me then (more as a kind of joke), why do you not write something about alpinism (as we are all enthusiastic about the mountains). But I took this rather serious, and I asked my professor if I could write my task about alpinism, and he agreed. And it was on this moment that I started to do research on mountaineering history. The year after that I wrote my master disertation (it's in full text on the internet, but unfortunatly only in Dutch: http://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/457/758/RUG01-001457758_2011_0001_AC.pdf) about it, and up till now I'm still working on it.
As French isn't a problem I'll try to find this book. But in Belgium it's unfortunatly very hard to find any mountain related literature.
By the way, superb trip report! Pity it wasn't true, but still a pleasure to read :)
Do you mind if i translate your text into portuguese and publish on my website (www.altamontanha.com)?
Of course, i'd put on the propper credit with your name, e-mail and profile link to SP.
No problem! I'm even very pleased you want to do that! As this probably means that you think this is a very decent article.
If you want, I can sent you the article in a Word document? Which is probably easier to work with. If so, just let me know and I'll sent it to you.
Koen,
As the work itself is too big, we're gonna publish in two parts, number one is already online with some additional images!
To see it, access: http://www.altamontanha.com/colunas.asp?NewsID=2913
Cheers!
Paulo
Looks good (even though I don't understand much of it in Portuguese :))! Some nice old photo's you added by the way (makes an article more pleasant to read. It's a pitty I don't really have such images).
Cheers!
The British also invented DNA, the transistor, stick-it notes, the submarine, pomme frites, the missionary position, Aurora Borealis, Mr. Microphone, and barbecue sauce.
I thought so. I know some of these comments don't contribute a lot (or even anything) to this article, or to anything related with mountaineering. But I don't think you're obliged to read them, so I don't really understand why this seems to be a problem.
I would say, I'll delete some of these comments, -I wouldn't mind- if that would please you! But I don't think I can do that...
supposed to be some kind of Marxist analysis of the history of mountaineering? One would think so from your constant talk about classes and imperialism. Moreover, the fact is that the large majority of the members of the upper middle class did not go mountaineering, but really was opposed to it, there was even talk of banning it after four of the seven climbers died during the first ascent of the Matterhorn. And of the British that made the ascent, only one was a member of the upper middle class, (Hudson, a clergyman), another climber was a peer (Lord Francis Douglas), the third a student (Hadow) brought along by Hudson. Whymper himself, the only British survivor, was decidedly not upper middle class having had little schooling and having been apprenticed to a wood engraver at a young age, he was first sent to the Alps on a commission to draw Alpine scenery. Only later, through his books on mountaineering describing his first ascents, such as also Mt. Pelvoux, Aiguille Verte, and Chimborazo, did he become famous and well-off, and could then perhaps be considered upper middle class.
I would suggest that the people who started British mountaineering were necessarily people who could afford the journey, but apart from that I doubt that there was much class-consciousness involved. I have read a few books about British mountaineering in the 1800s, and I never heard anybody even hinting that they did this to keep apart from the lower middle class, but perhaps that was done subconsciously?
Thanks for your comment.
First of all, it's not because I'm referring to imperialsm or class, that this has to be a marxist interpretation (and even if that would be the case, would that necessarily mean it would be false?). Second, imperialism and class were both really important during the Victorian age. Referrences to imperialism are made in most of the British alpine literature from this time (specially first ascents were symbols of the prestige and power of Britain as well as their identity). When it comes to class, this played an important role (in 19th century Britain (as well as in most other European countries), class was ever present within society, and it can't be neglected). A (small) part of the British middle class took up mountaineering, were they put 'their' identity into practice (and strenghtening it).
And, as I said in the article, they didn't start climbing to distinguish themselves from other classes, this was rather an indirect consequence of mountaineering.
It's true, not all mountaineers were upper middle class members, however, most of them (or, most members of the AC) were. It' s also true that it was only a minority who went to the Alps to do some actual climbing. This, however, does not mean everybody else was opposed to mountaineering. On the contrary, for example the succes of Albert Smith's show (about his ascent of Mont Blanc) at Picaddily during the 1850's, performing for several 100.000 people, hints towards the opposite.
The talk of banning mountaineering after the Matterhorn accident diminished realy fast shortly after the accident, after which mountaineering became even more popualar (from the late 1860's onwards).
KoenVl - May 17, 2011 4:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Behead the QueenFirst of all your comment doens't make much sense. It's not because you hate (for I don't know which reasons) the British that they can't have created modern mountaineering. If you would have read the entire article (which I doubt you have done), you would have noticed that I say that mountaineering did already occur before the British came in the 1840's-1850's. Not only in the Alps, but also elsewhere. But, for various reasons (which you can read in the article) these mountaineering activities can't really be called modern mountaineering, more some sort of 'pre-alpinism'. Modern mountaineering, as we know it still today, was 'invented' by these British alpinists.
visentin - May 17, 2011 6:35 am - Voted 10/10
Highly interestingAnd reminding me in many ways how the conquest of the Pyrenees was made, if not in majority, by a lot of Englishmen as well, and amongst them the unmissable Henry Russell...
KoenVl - May 17, 2011 8:29 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Highly interestingThanks!
I'm not very familiar with the history of mountain climbing in the Pyrenees, but as far as I know, and as you -rightly- say, it was quiet similar, only a little bit later. Just as it was, for example, in the Dauphiné or the eastern Alps.
By the way, vey interesting article you wrote about Henry Russel!
Cheers,
Koen.
visentin - May 17, 2011 8:43 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Highly interestingThanks for the vote !
About British "Pyreneism", and out of any kind of chauvinism, I disagree only slightly about the word "later", I think it is indeed the opposite. Partly perhaps because the English presence in the South West of France and especially in Pau was already since long (read this wiki page, chapter British tourism), partly also because the french Club Alpin was initiated by the Société Ramond (founded by Russell !) being itself inspired by the British Alpine Club.
You might be also interested in knowing the character who was Anne Lister, first climber of the Vignemale but famous for other reasons :)
I just saw Tomek and Peterbud comments too. True that British also explored massively the Tatras, for example Robert Townsend. Hungarians played also a huge role in that regions, fortunate notables could travel a lot bit similarly like the British did.
KoenVl - May 17, 2011 3:53 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Highly interestingYou're right! Mountaineering in the Pyrenees didn't really came later, or at least not as late as in the Dauphiné, the Eastern and Italian Alps, or other mountain ranges in Europa. From the beginning (late 1840's, but mostly from the 1850's and 1860's onwards) there were mountaineers in the Pyrenees, scaling mountains. However, the Western Alps (specially the Berner Oberland, Wallis and the Chamonix region) were far more frequently visited (specially by British mountaineers, but also by other nationalities). So when I say later, I rahter want to say that the Pyrenees became more popular at a later time. Although there were already mountaineering activities from the beginning. But for various reasons most mountaineers, as well as tourists rather chose to go to the Western Alps, instead of the Pyrenees (for example because Switzerland or Chamonix was far more easy to reach, or 'but the very reverse of all this is found in the Pyrenees.With the exception of one or two of the hotels at Bagnéres de Bigorre, the whole of the Pyrenees does not contain one really good hotel; and whatever may be the attractions of a country, it will never be much visited so long as the accomodation for travellers is bad.'(from Inglis H.D. 'Switzerland: the South of France, and the Pyrenees in 1830' , Volume 2, 1835.) Whether true or not, travellers only got this sort of information, and therefore their choice of travelling destination was in large degree based on such judgements. But you are absolutely right when you say that alpinism in the Pyrenees didn't occure later then in the Western Alps.
About the Tatres and other eastern Europe mountain ranges, the British did indeed play a large role in exploring these ranges, as well as they scaled many mountains there. But, this was only later, after mountaineering came to the Western Alps (or to the Pyrenees :)). And it's indeed correct that many locals (mostly scientists) did climb many mountains in these regions, but they mostly did it for other reasons as the British mountaineers, and the number of mountaineers was far less in these countries. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, British mountaineers really did create modern mountaineering (in a way we know it still today). But once again, mountaineering did already occur before the British came, and it was also done by many other persons of other nationalities, but for the reasons given in the article modern mountaineering only came with the British (after which this modern mountaineering was adopted by mountaineers all over the world).
But it's very interesting to see why, for example, some Hungarians went on to scale some mountains in Hungary, and how this could be compared with the reasons why the British climbed. And further, how British mountaineers have influenced (direct (climbing over there) or indirect (by climbing in general, or thanks to the foundation of the Alpine club etc.) local mountaineers, or the opposite, how these locals influenced British and other strangers when they came to these countries.
Still much resaerch to be done :)
But one can say that mountaineering did occur on different places at roughly the same time (however, the Western Alps, will probably come out first, as most mountaineers went there, and from very early on) and that British mountaineers were the driving power behind the birth and growth of mountaineering, but they were definitly not alone, as others played their role in all this as well.
About Anne Lister, when reading about her on Wikipedia, she did indeed some mountaineering trips, but she's certainly famous for her mountaineering exploits :)
visentin - May 18, 2011 5:27 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Highly interestingThat's all very interesting ! When you tell about hotels or places where tourists used to go (often places with natural warms spas, this was the main thing that motivated building resorts at that time), it was very early Cauterets in the Pyrenees. Partly also because Monte Perdido was believed to be to the top of the range. Afterwhile the roof of the Pyrenees moved to the Aneto and Luchon became the new fashionable headquarters of Pyreneism; Cauterets remained popular but lost its prominence. And what you state about locals people climbing tops for other purpose than tourism (for "useful" jobs) is particularly true, all of them were geographers, botanists, geologs, scientists, meteorologists, triangulation officers from the army (two of them in particular accomplished genuine exploits that remained in the dark for very long) or in the closest case painters like Franz Schrader...
Where did you get this passion for mountain history from ? I don't know if you read French but if one day the book of Henri Beraldi titled "Hundred years in the Pyrenees" is available in English, you should savour it as it deserves, that's a truely passionating book and easy to read about history of Pyreneism. Lots of references about local English tourism in it.
p.s: did you come across this TR ? :)
KoenVl - May 18, 2011 3:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Highly interestingI've always focussed on the Western Alps, but now that you started about the Pyrenees, I feel the urge of reading more about the history of mountaineering in the Pyrenees :)
Maybe when I have a bit more time this summer I'll try to find and read a bit about it, and maybe write a little comparison between mountaineering in the Western Alps and in the Pyrenees (By the way, I always refer to the Western Alps, as the development of mountaineering occured first over there, and the view of alpinism was quiet different from the kind of alpinism that was dominant in the Eastern Alps (specially from the 1870's-1880's onwards)(more focussed on though rock climbing, with many more climbers who came from the lower classes)).
Where my passion for mountaineering comes from? Difficult question. Actually I don't really know. As a historian I'm off course interested in history in general. And it's probably the combination of a passion for the mountains and this interest for history in general which brought me to mountaineering history. But I really started with this mountaineering history about two years ago. I needed to write a task for school (for my history studies) about travelling between Flanders and Switzerland in the 19th century. This hadn't got anything to do with mountaineering history, but it was my father who told me then (more as a kind of joke), why do you not write something about alpinism (as we are all enthusiastic about the mountains). But I took this rather serious, and I asked my professor if I could write my task about alpinism, and he agreed. And it was on this moment that I started to do research on mountaineering history. The year after that I wrote my master disertation (it's in full text on the internet, but unfortunatly only in Dutch: http://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/457/758/RUG01-001457758_2011_0001_AC.pdf) about it, and up till now I'm still working on it.
As French isn't a problem I'll try to find this book. But in Belgium it's unfortunatly very hard to find any mountain related literature.
By the way, superb trip report! Pity it wasn't true, but still a pleasure to read :)
Cheers,
Koen.
PAROFES - May 18, 2011 12:27 pm - Voted 10/10
KoenDo you mind if i translate your text into portuguese and publish on my website (www.altamontanha.com)?
Of course, i'd put on the propper credit with your name, e-mail and profile link to SP.
KoenVl - May 18, 2011 3:13 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: KoenNo problem! I'm even very pleased you want to do that! As this probably means that you think this is a very decent article.
If you want, I can sent you the article in a Word document? Which is probably easier to work with. If so, just let me know and I'll sent it to you.
PAROFES - May 18, 2011 4:05 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: KoenPerfect man! Here we go: parofes@gmail.com
I'm doing a similar article but about brazilian mountaineering! Check it out, it's almost done!
PAROFES - May 23, 2011 1:07 pm - Voted 10/10
Published!Koen,
As the work itself is too big, we're gonna publish in two parts, number one is already online with some additional images!
To see it, access: http://www.altamontanha.com/colunas.asp?NewsID=2913
Cheers!
Paulo
KoenVl - May 24, 2011 9:57 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Published!Looks good (even though I don't understand much of it in Portuguese :))! Some nice old photo's you added by the way (makes an article more pleasant to read. It's a pitty I don't really have such images).
Cheers!
DrJonnie - May 26, 2011 4:31 am - Voted 10/10
Exterminate?Hopefully the elves will delete moronic commentary, we all like a good debate but abusive uncritical bollocks is not needed on SP
MoapaPk - May 30, 2011 5:46 pm - Voted 10/10
Other great inventionsThe British also invented DNA, the transistor, stick-it notes, the submarine, pomme frites, the missionary position, Aurora Borealis, Mr. Microphone, and barbecue sauce.
KoenVl - May 31, 2011 2:54 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Other great inventionsWe Belgians, however, like to claim that pommes frites are a Belgian invention :)
MoapaPk - May 31, 2011 4:08 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Other great inventionsI thought that would get your attention! I just wanted to divert the nastier commentary with a bit of nonsense.
KoenVl - Jun 1, 2011 11:47 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Other great inventionsI thought so. I know some of these comments don't contribute a lot (or even anything) to this article, or to anything related with mountaineering. But I don't think you're obliged to read them, so I don't really understand why this seems to be a problem.
I would say, I'll delete some of these comments, -I wouldn't mind- if that would please you! But I don't think I can do that...
PAROFES - May 31, 2011 3:52 pm - Voted 10/10
KoenSecond part online!
And with more historic images for you to see!
http://www.altamontanha.com/colunas.asp?NewsID=2927
Again, thank you very much!
Cheers
Paulo
Ejnar Fjerdingstad - Oct 24, 2013 1:34 pm - Hasn't voted
Is thissupposed to be some kind of Marxist analysis of the history of mountaineering? One would think so from your constant talk about classes and imperialism. Moreover, the fact is that the large majority of the members of the upper middle class did not go mountaineering, but really was opposed to it, there was even talk of banning it after four of the seven climbers died during the first ascent of the Matterhorn. And of the British that made the ascent, only one was a member of the upper middle class, (Hudson, a clergyman), another climber was a peer (Lord Francis Douglas), the third a student (Hadow) brought along by Hudson. Whymper himself, the only British survivor, was decidedly not upper middle class having had little schooling and having been apprenticed to a wood engraver at a young age, he was first sent to the Alps on a commission to draw Alpine scenery. Only later, through his books on mountaineering describing his first ascents, such as also Mt. Pelvoux, Aiguille Verte, and Chimborazo, did he become famous and well-off, and could then perhaps be considered upper middle class.
I would suggest that the people who started British mountaineering were necessarily people who could afford the journey, but apart from that I doubt that there was much class-consciousness involved. I have read a few books about British mountaineering in the 1800s, and I never heard anybody even hinting that they did this to keep apart from the lower middle class, but perhaps that was done subconsciously?
KoenVl - Oct 25, 2013 5:19 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Is thisThanks for your comment.
First of all, it's not because I'm referring to imperialsm or class, that this has to be a marxist interpretation (and even if that would be the case, would that necessarily mean it would be false?). Second, imperialism and class were both really important during the Victorian age. Referrences to imperialism are made in most of the British alpine literature from this time (specially first ascents were symbols of the prestige and power of Britain as well as their identity). When it comes to class, this played an important role (in 19th century Britain (as well as in most other European countries), class was ever present within society, and it can't be neglected). A (small) part of the British middle class took up mountaineering, were they put 'their' identity into practice (and strenghtening it).
And, as I said in the article, they didn't start climbing to distinguish themselves from other classes, this was rather an indirect consequence of mountaineering.
It's true, not all mountaineers were upper middle class members, however, most of them (or, most members of the AC) were. It' s also true that it was only a minority who went to the Alps to do some actual climbing. This, however, does not mean everybody else was opposed to mountaineering. On the contrary, for example the succes of Albert Smith's show (about his ascent of Mont Blanc) at Picaddily during the 1850's, performing for several 100.000 people, hints towards the opposite.
The talk of banning mountaineering after the Matterhorn accident diminished realy fast shortly after the accident, after which mountaineering became even more popualar (from the late 1860's onwards).
Best regards,
Koen