mrchad9 wrote:I love that Chief had to edit his first response to anita.

Classic.

SoCalHiker wrote:It's the more and more prevailing attitude that being a "free" person in this country is equaled to "I can do whatever I want" or "Nobody can tell me what not to do" I am not talking about capital crimes of course rather than about these little misdemeanors. Doing something that not everybody dares to do because of some restrictions, limitations, or rules makes it even more exciting and desirable. Doing it without getting caught is then generally followed by displaying oneself as the invincible "hero", while in fact it is testimony to complete ignorance and disrespect.

I somehow can't accept the concept of a mountain being off-limits to climbers. In most cases. And there are a few possible cases.
Most of all I can't agree with the concept of a 'private mountain'. For big landowners, common sense dictates that only their household, buildings and their immediate vicinity (curtilage? my legal English is limited) and cultivated land are obviously off limits. But forests, badlands, mountains being off limits to responsible ramblers? That's sick.
The right to roam is something basic to human nature. Of course with rights come responsibilities but I needn't mention such obvious things here.
The same with mountains being off limits for political reasons. I have no bones about illegally crossing political borders in the mountains.
Mountains in military areas - also something artificial to me. Play the game - climb and try not to get caught (or shot) if you dare, as far as your common sense allows.
Religion is a different ballgame. I have deep respect for religions, beliefs, faiths, whichever denomination. I would perhaps still try to climb a mountain, but... see below.
Environmental protection - another thing too. Some mountains or routes are off limits in particular seasons due to it - I understand it and would never climb then. In theory, if in a particular place even a single climb whichever time of the year, no matter how careful I would tread, could make irreversible damage to environment, that would perhaps be the only case I would refrain from climbing a mountain at all.
In some cases however, environmental regulations are a fig leaf for e.g. guiding companies blatantly making money, etc. I know such cases in Europe.
To sum up... In most of the cases above, having the resources and skills I would climb a particular mountain but keep a low profile. The more sensitive the issue, the less I would spray about it, simply not to make life harder for prospective climbers. There are some degrees to it:
E.g. I openly write in my TRs about not-so-legally crossing state borders in the Balkans, where regulations are vague and it's difficult to determine the current state of affairs, just to inform the community what they can expect. The pros outweigh the cons here.
'Off-limit private mountains' - what a disgusting concept! First I would negotiate to enter legally - I respect the landowners who respect climbers. If that was impossible I would quietly sneak in. Playing hide-and-seek with some gun-wielding farmers and rent-a-cops would be part of the fun. I would keep a low profile afterwards, not to make life harder for other climbers. I would gladly join a public campaign against those mountains being closed.
Having the possibility to climb e.g. Ship Rock, I would attempt it. Would keep a much lower profile than the authors of this TR though. In SP, I would maybe just post a few pics, make some vague references. Would tell my friends over a beer, and that's it. Out of respect for Navajo beliefs. In my own system of values, I can pay tribute to the mountain by climbing it, instead of 'conquering' it (there's no such thing to me!) but others may feel differently. BTW, good points raised by Klenke a few posts above. Still I give 10/10 for the story...
I understand the temptation to post such a TR, would feel it myself!
Had I the resources and skills to climb e.g. Kailash, I might go for it, hypothetically. If it's ever possible not to be seen. Maybe I would tell someone many years later, or maybe not
I might have gone over the top in some points, but that was on purpose, try to get my point...

Neophiteat48 wrote:So there isn't anyone here who can back up their statements and confirm they they obey each and every law on the books out there, never knowingly disobeying a single one?

Never speeding?yes i do
Never give an under 21 year old relative a sip of alcohol?no i don't
Never trespassed?no i don't
Never failed to come to a complete stop?wow, i have
Never cross the street except at crosswalks?a lot
Never voted twice in a recent election?NO- only dems do that
Never committed sodomy in Texas before the Supreme Court legalized it?sorry sir, i don't recall

Or any other laws? my wife and I "snuck" up the service elevator and thru the kitchen at the St Francis to the ballroom up top. Pretty cool up there at night, by ourselves gazing at the city

Neophiteat48 wrote:So there isn't anyone here who can back up their statements and confirm they they obey each and every law on the books out there, never knowingly disobeying a single one?

Never speeding?yes i do
Never give an under 21 year old relative a sip of alcohol?no i don't
Never trespassed?no i don't
Never failed to come to a complete stop?wow, i have
Never cross the street except at crosswalks?a lot
Never voted twice in a recent election?NO- only dems do that
Never committed sodomy in Texas before the Supreme Court legalized it?sorry sir, i don't recall

Or any other laws? my wife and I "snuck" up the service elevator and thru the kitchen at the St Francis to the ballroom up top. Pretty cool up there at night, by ourselves gazing at the city

rpc wrote:six pages of this...just to make sure my humble 5 cents are crystal, this should not have been on the front page (that's the extent of my complaining).

The Chief wrote:That is a point that many I feel, do not get nor really seem to care about.

The Chief wrote:

Neophiteat48 wrote:So there isn't anyone here who can back up their statements and confirm they they obey each and every law on the books out there, never knowingly disobeying a single one?

Never speeding?yes i do
Never give an under 21 year old relative a sip of alcohol?no i don't
Never trespassed?no i don't
Never failed to come to a complete stop?wow, i have
Never cross the street except at crosswalks?a lot
Never voted twice in a recent election?NO- only dems do that
Never committed sodomy in Texas before the Supreme Court legalized it?sorry sir, i don't recall

Or any other laws? my wife and I "snuck" up the service elevator and thru the kitchen at the St Francis to the ballroom up top. Pretty cool up there at night, by ourselves gazing at the city

Your Post has nothing to do nor any relevance the ACCESS issues that prevail throughout the U.S.


That is a point that many I feel, do not get nor really seem to care about.

I'm happy for the controversy over this one. I don't usually read trip reports, prefer to go on my own outings more, suppose I am selfish. But hearing rumblings I decided to give it a read and glad I did.

Sounds like an awesome trip and and memorable experience you will have the rest of your life, and your story had me from beginning to end. I see no reason for any regrets. No one was hurt, stolen from, abused, blah blah. The tribes will be fine. And your photos are spectacular.

mrchad9 wrote:I guess I am taking the less popular postion. Takes courage.

Some folks have even changed their initial votes from 10 to 1 after reading it more carefully, or following the pack perhaps.

The Chief wrote:So now you are insinuating that taking a stand for what IS NOT the right thing to do, is a less popular stand and takes courage to do so.

The Chief wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:And to do so is "following the pack"?