The Chief wrote:

cp0915 wrote:My "opine" (misuse of this word has become rampant on SP the last few days)...

Really now...

From Websters:


Main Entry: opine
Pronunciation: \?-?p?n\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): opined; opin·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French opiner, from Latin opinari to have an opinion
Date: 15th century

intransitive verb : to express opinions
transitive verb : to state as an opinion

It's a verb. One "opines," but one cannot have an "opine." One can have or express an opinion, but one cannot "opinion."

So yes it is a misuse, albeit a colorful one.

OK cp0915, Kris and Mike from TX...

Let's try this again.

My post was in the context of the "action " of giving his opinion, the right to do so and not the opinion itself. Thus it is a transitive verb.

Thus it was not misused.

It is his, ericwillhite, Right to opine on this matter.

Whether the action of giving his opinion was right, wrong or indifferent, is not the issue nor was it within the context of my post.

The structure of your sentence demands the use of a noun there.

"That's his opinion."

To use the verb, it would be correct to say "It's his right to opine..."

You're grinding the gears of grammar to crash land the verb in the structure created for a noun.

Anyway the only reason I am persuing this is because it is more entertaining than my alternative task at the moment.

Carry on...

(edit, best nothave typos in a post about language )

Should I even bother?

my god, Day Hiker is missing this?

Mark himself chose to reply to Eric's attack in great many paragraps, and in so doing, to shift the emphasis of the article from the existential beauty and severity of the mountain peaks to the matters of guilt and innocence and corrective actions and such stuff.

You just can't have it both ways. To keep an article a piece of philosophy, a poetic eulogy, would require a lot more humility from its author. I know it's hard to achieve. But once it turns into a "dissection of actions", "who could or should have done what", then there is no way back. It's like you start yelling and fighting in what was supposed to be a solemn temple, and it just isn't a sacred place anymore. So much about Mark's enthusing about the brotherhood of the mountaineers. Where are brothers, there are ungly sibling fights, and we just got one more proof.

BTW I completely disagree with the other premise of the article, in that you don't have to climb these huge peaks to see the beautiful and the unusual around us. All one has to do is to open one's eyes. Mother Nature's beauty is beneath your feet and above your heads everywhere, you just need to start tuning to it.

Let me repost it in my old language to make it clearer for all...



Quit fking whining about the dudes, ericwillhite, post on this issue. Just cuz you don't agree with him, doesn't make it right nor wrong. He has every fking right to say what he feels about why people are taking risks and then ending up dead.



That better and more to the point, ya'll.

MikeTX wrote:... and i'm guessing that in the spirit of a true mountaineer, he will find a way to straighten out willhite.

What is there to "straighten out" Mike from Tx?

So I am to understand that if someone posts a trip report or article about something deeply personal to them, the comment range is a free for all if we just label everything an "opinion"?

The question is: Do we want to see more of these personal, interesting, and out-of-the-ordinary stories around or not?
If we don't care, then by all means this website can be a massive free-for-all, internet-style anonymous shitstorm of adolescent self-aggrandizement and personal attacks.
If we want to read about others' experiences, stimulate our minds, and potentially even learn from their mistakes, then the discourse must remain civil. Otherwise, members won't feel comfortable posting personal material.

If you think the unabrogated right to be an absolute douchebag is more important than the community SP is (or could be? I don't think we're there yet), then by all means label hurtful, personal attacks as "opinions," and be done with it.

Censorship, of any sorts, here on SP or anywhere for that matter, is totally against anything that America stands for, young lad.

Let's not go there.

Personal attacks. Did not see one within Eric's comments. Just the dudes 'opinion' on the matter.

MOCKBA wrote:BTW I completely disagree with the other premise of the article, in that you don't have to climb these huge peaks to see the beautiful and the unusual around us. All one has to do is to open one's eyes. Mother Nature's beauty is beneath your feet and above your heads everywhere, you just need to start tuning to it.

+1 and thank you.

Although everyone has his or her opinion about this topic I find a discussion without the parties involved being on the same table rather meaningless.

anita wrote:all opines aside, I agree with cp0915

And you have every right to your opinion.... right or wrong.

Bob Sihler wrote:I have no idea what the original comments were and cannot therefore comment on them. But these incidents produce strong feelings from different viewpoints. Criticism, even tough criticism, is fair. Attacks are not. And if you are going to open up in public, you had better accept that not all will see it your way.

On this site, I find that far too often members are happy to rip into strangers but feel it's some kind of no-no to criticize other members. You can't have it both ways. And there's also a contingent that seems to think we should never criticize another climber. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

That being said, I want to reiterate my preference for civil discussion and constructive criticism. I think Pellucid had a lot of guts to write what he did, and I thought it was a good article; I read it and voted on it several days before it was on the front page and was among the first to do so, so I haven't jumped on some feel-good bandwagon here.

Even though the original comments were deleted, he came back with more. I would be interested Bob, in all honesty, if you view this guy as giving criticism or he is attacking.

Hard to get motivated to contribute to this thread when so many members make such exacting and "spot on" points. Well stated.

MOCKBA wrote:Mark himself chose to reply to Eric's attack in great many paragraps, and in so doing, to shift the emphasis of the article from the existential beauty and severity of the mountain peaks to the matters of guilt and innocence and corrective actions and such stuff.

You just can't have it both ways. To keep an article a piece of philosophy, a poetic eulogy, would require a lot more humility from its author. I know it's hard to achieve. But once it turns into a "dissection of actions", "who could or should have done what", then there is no way back. It's like you start yelling and fighting in what was supposed to be a solemn temple, and it just isn't a sacred place anymore. So much about Mark's enthusing about the brotherhood of the mountaineers. Where are brothers, there are ungly sibling fights, and we just got one more proof.

BTW I completely disagree with the other premise of the article, in that you don't have to climb these huge peaks to see the beautiful and the unusual around us. All one has to do is to open one's eyes. Mother Nature's beauty is beneath your feet and above your heads everywhere, you just need to start tuning to it.

The Dude wrote:

The Chief wrote:Did not see one within Eric's comments. Just the dudes 'opinion' on the matter.

Hey Chief... keep me out of it. I ain't said shit so far. I only agreed with Dingus that the personal attacks are not real constructive.

Not you!

This eric.... ericwillhite. The dude that some here don't feel should state his opinion on the article in question....
http://www.summitpost.org/article/62195 ... Climb.html



ericwillhite Since you asked Reply

Since you asked "Where did I make a stupid mistake"? Let me tell you.
As you explained, you post your stories on-line so others can learn from your mistakes. It is a climbers responsibility to dissect any mountaineering incident in order to learn from the mistakes. If not, you must not have a self-preservation trigger in your body. Growing up in the shadow of Mt. Rainier, I learned from the mistakes of the dozens of climbers who died or got in over their heads. Most incidents had at least one or two of the 6 reasons I list below, reasons that your climbing team got in trouble. This wasn't exactly a "freak accident", there were some bad decisions. Although his H.A.C.E. was a unforeseen circumstance, you did place yourselves in a bad situation where a bad outcome was much more likely.

Here are the issues.
1) You chose to be high on the mountain as darkness fell. (Is this really true!)
2) You chose a more difficult route with a more difficult decent.
3) You chose to camp near the summit above 14,000 feet without proper acclimatization.
4) You chose to continue to the summit when the weather was turning bad.
5) You had inexperience with the type of weather a volcanic peak on the west coast can create and the warning signs of dangerous weather.
6) You were lacking the proper gear for intense weather. Placing wands to the summit would have given you the confidence to descend during a storm instead of trying to wait out the storm, a typical death sentence on these peaks. Storms last for days, you can't afford to "hang out" at the summit. Wands are an essential piece of gear that few climbers outside the northwest realize.

I've been in your exact position on the summit of Rainier, in winter, in a ice storm so bad I weighed an extra 5 pounds from the ice. The difference was I didn't accept any of the 6 risks that you took above. Accept your mistakes. You shouldn't have spent the night up there. You took higher than usual risks. We all do at times. But, the fact that this is not the first time you have received national attention for your climbing accidents, it does raise red flags as to your overzealous pursuits when you lack experience. Too many climbers want too much too fast without putting in the time to learn the ropes. You can buy all the best gear and train in the gym all you want but it won't get you the skills needed to survive the obstacles of mountaineering. It's sad nobody on this form has the stomach to tell you these things.

Surviving a 1,000 ft Fall on Mt Nebo

I'm sure there are a few mistakes in this article but it's close enough:
"On Friday, they made it to the summit and began to descend the Whitney-Bolam Ridge in the dark. But the winds blew hard that night. They decided the best plan was dig a snow cave at 14,050 feet, about 100 feet below the summit, and leave at first light Saturday morning. The only fear Thomas and Bennett had of spending the night that high up was hypothermia. "Sleeping up there wasn't that big of a deal," Thomas said. "Other than you didn't have the convenience of your tent. But those winds would have shredded a tent. We were fine with staying right where we were because it was the safest decision."

Thomas had worked as a cold-water lifeguard and knew the symptoms of hypothermia, so he and Bennett talked to each other through the night, checking for signs of disorientation. They didn't feel any colder as the night progressed. They talked about how they couldn't wait for sunlight. They talked about the things friends talk about: Thomas is a structural engineer and Bennett a chemical engineer. "We'd talk about how these mathematical ideas manifest themselves in nature," Thomas said, such as strength and the beauty of a crevasse. By morning, the two men gathered their things, and as Bennett put on his crampons, he told Thomas his balance was off. Then he complained of fading eyesight.
Thomas asked Bennett questions to check his lucidity. He said Bennett shook it off, and insisted his eyesight was improving. But shortly after that, Bennett started to fear that he couldn't make it down. Thomas tied himself to his partner with a short rope to help Bennett descend. They moved slowly. Thomas felt the winds pick up and blow the two men off course. They tried moving along on their knees.
"I was having trouble myself," Thomas said of fighting the wind. "There was no way I could save someone else." Thomas then used his cell phone to dial 911. The cold weather had chilled the batteries. But he warmed up the phone and managed to make one rescue call to a ranger before the phone failed.
With the winds picking up and daylight fading, he dug a snow cave and moved Bennett inside. Bennett was unresponsive, Thomas said. He administered CPR. "In the back of my mind I kept hoping I was wrong," Thomas said. Thomas set aside the rations for Bennett in case he woke up. Thomas marked the spot with a black avalanche marker and headed down the mountain alone. "It was a complex feeling," Thomas said. "I was scared that I wasn't going to make it out of there myself. I was absolutely sure Tom was deceased, and I was sad that Tom was gone. But I couldn't stay any longer."
After Thomas set out on his own, the winds again pushed him of course, forcing him northwest. At times, the snow limited visibility to about an arm's length.
"I knew every decision I made was critical," Thomas said. "I became very careful with everything I did." By nightfall, Thomas realized he hadn't eaten or drunk water all day.
He dug a snow cave for himself, dried his clothes and got a little sleep. In the morning, he ate the last of his food and was able to get cell phone reception long enough to arrange for rangers to meet him at a nearby road. When he saw the snowmobile, he felt some relief. "And anxiousness," he said. "I wanted to get things together long enough to tell them exactly where to find Tom. I was still hoping that I was wrong."



I see absolutely no "Personal attacks", not one. Just some stated down and dirty opinions on the incident and facts of other incidents in the past that may coincide with this one. Many which I have personally stated in other incidents and agree with 100%.

Opinions are like ass holes. Everybody has one!! People who choose to engage in any dangerous activity, including mountaineering, need to understand that they, and they alone, are responsible for their own actions. Climbing team members can choose to follow the team leader, or not. Members can choose to go along with the leader's decisions, or not.

Even the most well intentioned, highly experienced climbers sometimes make mistakes. Shit happens! Nobody learns anything from Monday morning quarterbacking and attempts to assign blame.