why not use the cobra in the alpine as well?

[quote="ExcitableBoy"]

Dan (aka="ExcitableBoy") sure as hell should known better. THEFT of another's copy righted material (photos or content) is unacceptable by any standard. Ask first and actually get permission before ripping off another's property. Have some respect.

Sorry Dane, you are correct, I should have properly credited the photo. It was bad form on my part.

Re Using the Cobras in alpine terrain

Quite OK to use them. There is no problem I know of that would preclude you from using them. Possibly, the more curved tools would not enable you to arrest with them, but that is not what these tools were designed for.

For me, the Venoms represent a light, inexpensive and more than adequate alternative for messing around in the mountains. Don't know how they would do in bullet-proof, hard ice, I have not been on such ice with them, but had the tools in Scotland in 2010 and used them a bit here in California in alpine terrain with no problems. My wife has a pair too and loves them because her hands are small and she can hold the tools comfortably. She loves how light they are.

We both have another pair of tools, my Cobras and my wife's Trango. But for someone just starting in alpine climbing, one pair should do it. The cost of multiple tools might be an issue. Also, every few years a major innovation in tool technology comes around and most people I know, buy tools every few years when the technology improves the old design.

I would look really hard at leash-less design if I would be on the market again. Tools that leash can be attached to and also easily removed from and are designed to be used both ways would be something I would look into. Leash-less climbing has several advantages, the biggest one, freeing your hands for rock moves and placing screws.

Hi Strider,

I’m answering this from the perspective of someone else with limited but increasing alpine experience, so I was in a similar position to you not so long ago. In addition, I’ve been doing mostly alpine climbs, but a week of steep ice here and there too. Also from the perspective of someone who can't try tools prior to purchase (not much opportunity for that in Australia either).

If you want a pair of tools that will suit you for everything you’re likely to do in the next couple of years, examine your objectives, and ask “how am I most likely to die / get seriously injured?” and “what tool will contribute to lowering those risks?”. The answer to the first is – you lose your footing and fail to self arrest. The tool that will reduce the risk of that (if properly used) is a good piolet cane that you can use to enhance your balance like a walking stick on appropriate terrain (but is no replacement for good crampon work), and a gently curved pick that will self arrest with comparative ease. Yes, you can self-arrest with a steep, technical pick, but it’s rough and hard – by which I mean you’re very likely to have the tool ripped out of your hands (and / or your shoulder ripped out of it's socket) (and therefore not stopping you), not it’s a bumpy stop to a slide. Secondly, you want a tool you can use as an anchor in hard snow, which means a shaft you can plunge in deep and fast – which means you need minimal protrusions around the spike, like handrests or full handles.

That said, I use a pair of Petzl Sum’tecs, with an extra griprest added to the shaft for really steep stuff, so you can match on tools and the like, and slide them right up (or take one off and slide the other up) for piolet cane mode. But I’m going to get a BD Raven Pro and use that with the Sum’tec hammer for ‘average’, less technical alpine stuff. What has prompted this purchase was comparing self-arrest with a friend's Raven compared to my Sum'tec, and a number of recent deaths in the NZ Southern Alps where, you guessed it, the victims lost their footing and failed to self-arrest.

In summary, use whatever tools increase your safety. Sure, the Sum’tecs, the BD Venoms, the Raven, etc. don’t look as badass as a pair of Nomics or Cobras, but no one looks cool sliding out of control down a moderate slope with a couple of fancy tools doing SFA to help. Get those babies when you’re climbing the hardman climbs.

Let us know what you end up going with.

guys, thanks to everyone for their feedback,

WillP, yes i see your point. and it is a valid one.
but to take the money aspect aside why not buy a "somewhat technical" tool for those waterfall ice climbing ocasions and buy 1 classical- straight shaft and pick - tool for mountaineering and glacier travel purposes.
i mean my usual day would be :
i wake up in the morning , get ready and head for the mountains . usually a glacier on the way or a low angeled snow feild = walking axe
then maybe some ice - in which i can use the more technical tools.
if ther's snow filled ridge on the way to the summit i can use the walking axe again.

is the 3 tool ( 2 technical and 1 for glacier and snow travel) technique is old fashioned ? and people prefer to use 2 "hybrid" tools like the sumtec or the quarks for everything they will encounter on the mountain?

For climbing waterfall ice, I take two technical tools anytime. On an alpine climb, I never take more than two axes. Depending on the difficulties that I think I may find, I'll choose between four options: no axe, one long axe, one long axe and a technical one or two technical ones. More to the point, when I expect problems that might well require two technical tools, then that's what I bring. And in that case I don't want to add a third axe and drag more weight around; on the easier sections I'll just make do with the tools.


Two tools parked on the summit ridge of Tocclaraju

ok rgg, i can see now that bringing 3 tools for a climb is pretty stupid. i guess i would opt for not doing it also if i had the choice.

so basically what im thinking now is:
1. i could buy a pair of nomics have great time WI climbing this winter but then probably realize they are way out of my league when going to the mountains .

2. buy a pair of nomics a, still have a great time on WI this winter (i guess) , and maybe still work them in the mountains.

Third option; buy Quarks, Cobras, or Vipers and have awesome all around alpine and waterfall tools. WI 7 was climbed with Grivel Rambos and Charlet Moser Pulsars back in the day. Quarks, Cobras, and Vipers are far, far more capable tools - by the time you are climbing hard enough stuff to warrant a more technical tool, Nomics will be considered old school.

Or, buy Nomics and a used, 50 CM hammer for $50. Pair the hammer with your regular axe for moderate alpine climbing and technical mountaineering and pull out the Nomics for waterfalls and hard winter mixed alpine routes.

whoops, sorry . the 2 in my previous post was suposed to be "buy a pair of Quarks, still have a great time on waterfall ice this winter and then (maybe?) still work them in the mountains.

i will keep you guys updated after i go to some stores to feel and swing some tools.

If it's not too late to add a couple thoughts - the ability to plunge a straight shaft in snow is not only useful as a quick piece of pro for belay purposes, it's also useful for for probing for crevasses - an avalanche probe is also suited for this but the axe is usually the tool in your hand at the moment. This is difficult or impossible to do with technical tools that have curved shafts and protruding grips. As others have alluded to it's easier to use a traditional axe or lightly curved hybrid tool for balance when doing French technique, which you will do a lot of if you get into alpine climbing. I bought a couple of hybrid tools (Grivel Air Tech axe, BD Venom hammer) for snow and alpine ice, and some time later bought a pair of Cobras when I got interested in water ice. The cobras are better for hard ice, but like Asmrz I still prefer to carry the hybrid tools when in an alpine situation since they do the job and are lighter and cheaper to repair/replace if necessary.

Perhaps a job search would benefit your ice climbing more than a new set of tools. Where do you climb in the middle east? A more technical tool makes ice climbing easier, not harder.
Pay no attention to all that gibberish about plunging and self arrest. If the snow is soft enough to plunge a tool, any will do and if the snow's too firm then you're just using the spike for balance. Self arrest - well, it's for pansies. You should take your medicine if you fall on snow. Just get a nice, cheap tool like a Rage or the aluminum shaft Quantum and call it good.

KeithN , Im sorry. what difference does it make where do i currently reside?
when walking with a full backpack loosing balance and falling on an inclined snow slope is a real danger, happened to me before- for pansies? i disagree.

Perhaps a smaller pack then? A big pack is a self-(ful)filling prophecy anyway.
But you appear to be a serious guy, so I'll sober up for a moment. The self-arrest issue is a red herring; don't worry about it. If you are on the kind of snow which allows a self-arrest with a reverse curve pick, any tool will do. If you are on the kind of snow which does not allow a self-arrest with a reverse curve pick, no tool so equipped will do. Best not to fall on the latter anyway, unless you are very quick and very strong, i.e. not the kind of pansie who's gonna slip up on that terrain in the first place:).
More to the point, what grade are you looking to climb? Something like a Nomic is not really superior to a lesser weapon on WI 3-4 less-than-vertical terrain. It isn't worse, and will rule the little vertical steps, but I'm not sure you need it. It won't be 'too technical' though.

valid points there, KeithN.
i am very into mountaineering ,technical mountaineering and alpine rock climbing but very new to WI.
you know, i was just thinking - " well if i wanna climb some WI this winter and i can spare some cash why not buy something that will be fun to climb with and serve me well for seasons to come.
that is when the nomic and the quark came along.