M, you guys were here that weekend.

Mountain Impulse wrote:

Guyzo wrote:
I don't know about you folks but the weakness/flaw in this rap system is this: Rapelling with a single line system.

The climber was using a "cinch" - this is much like the Grigri, a devise made for the purpose of belaying not rappelling.

Looking at the whole set up it just looks bogus.

He died because they left off the biner and the knot pulled through the ring.

Simple as that.

The solution is simple, stop using belay devices as rapelling rigs and rap down on both lines.

I was hoping Todd Skinners death would have had a strong influence on the climbing public to stop using these for rappelling.

Sad, truly sad.

Guyzo,

I wouldn't use a Cinch for rappelling either. But apparently the use of that device didn't contribute to the accident, it was as you say the knot block pulling thru the rap ring. A 'biner would have made the difference. Plus, I'm not clear whether his knot block was a figure8 on a bight or whether he was using the EDK with which he tied the two lines together as his block.

I do disagree that a single strand rap can't be safe. For instance, a clove hitch on a locking biner set against a rapide is not ever going to pull thru.

Re Todd Skinner-as I recall it was his belay loop that broke that caused his fall and not his anchor rigging.

Too bad it takes a death to throw up reminders to check and double check your system.

Augie

All I have to say is this. The only good thing to come from this terrible event is to learn something that might prevent this from repeating itself.

The dangers of using a girgri, or a cinch, as a rap device is the shock loading of the system.

I don't know if you have ever used one of these for rapelling. I have and it's scary because to rap down.... you pull the lever back and you freefall intill you release the lever and you stop instantly. BAM right on the anchor!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care what knot is used, one never wishes to shock load their anchor like this.






This really blows.

I have had a few brushes with two climbers from UCLA at the local crags, good fellows all. I hope to see both of them at some point in the future.

Rest in peace.

I don't know if you have ever used one of these for rapelling. I have and it's scary because to rap down.... you pull the lever back and you freefall intill you release the lever and you stop instantly. BAM right on the anchor!!!!!!!!!!

That's not necessarily true - you can get a smooth rope feed and stop, although it is tricky and takes practice. However, relying on a knot jammed against a rappel ring ( without that backup carabiner ) was the cause of the accident - not the use of a Cinch. And was an admitted mistake ( see the Supertopo thread ).

Your comment on carabiner brake rappels is incorrect too - they are perfectly safe when done correctly - I used them for many years, and wouldn't hesitate to use one now. Everyone should know how to do one in case they drop thier ATC !!

Craig Peer wrote:Your comment on carabiner brake rappels is incorrect too - they are perfectly safe when done correctly - I used them for many years, and wouldn't hesitate to use one now. Everyone should know how to do one in case they drop thier ATC !!

Good point Craig! Efficiently knowing alternative ways to rap will keep ya alive in case ya lose your primary device.

BUT! I will use a Munter long before I ever use a Biner Break to rappel on.

Far too many pieces and things that can go wrong when using a BB Rap System.

KISS will in fact keep us all alive.

And I totally agree with GUY and the rest that insist we use the right tools and eq for the purpose that they are specifically designed for.

Not one of those Auto Belay devices is designed to rappel on and not one of their manu's condones the use of their product to do so.

The account from the partner was very well written and detailed the cause very well, I would recommend everyone read it, but I dare not link it here...

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 065&tn=140

See Japhy's post.

Misha wrote:Hold on... Is this the Brian I am thinking of!?

if its the same brian i thought of, i know it is not. i know you have climbed with the brian i know from sierra madre.

RIP Brian.

Craig Peer wrote:

The account from the partner was very well written and detailed the cause very well, I would recommend everyone read it, but I dare not link it here...

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 065&tn=140

See Japhy's post.

I can also post a very well written, detailed and vivid first hand account from the YOSAR Sup (which many of you know over on ST) that was there to do the follow up investigation and remove the remains. He sent me a pretty basic email this morning discussing the situ. Many here may also not agree with simple yet what many may consider harsh opine.

But, I won't as it does not add anything POSITIVE and as does none of the other on-sight emotional blow by blow accounts of the fall and ensuing events.

What does matter is that this sad incident have a good ending through positive discussions which may lead others out there rethink how they do things when their asses are 100% on the system and they have no longer have any control when they unclip from the anchor.

Ensuing investigations have positive outcomes only when done and then published by those that have no ties to actual incident nor the victim.

We should ALL wait to see what the final investigation/analysis is of this very traumatic incident that hopefully will never happen again.

x15x15 wrote:

Misha wrote:Hold on... Is this the Brian I am thinking of!?

if its the same brian i thought of, i know it is not. i know you have climbed with the brian i know from sierra madre.

RIP Brian.

Unfortunately, it is the same Brian I thought of. We hung out at Lovers Leap over Labor Day in 2007. It just went from tragic to flat out awful
We were topping out on Selaginella, about half a mile away from Serenity Crack when this accident happened

Craig Peer wrote:

I don't know if you have ever used one of these for rapelling. I have and it's scary because to rap down.... you pull the lever back and you freefall intill you release the lever and you stop instantly. BAM right on the anchor!!!!!!!!!!

That's not necessarily true - you can get a smooth rope feed and stop, although it is tricky and takes practice. However, relying on a knot jammed against a rappel ring ( without that backup carabiner ) was the cause of the accident - not the use of a Cinch. And was an admitted mistake ( see the Supertopo thread ).

Your comment on carabiner brake rappels is incorrect too - they are perfectly safe when done correctly - I used them for many years, and wouldn't hesitate to use one now. Everyone should know how to do one in case they drop thier ATC !!

Craig please don't get me wrong. The carabiner brake I referred to wasn't "the carabiner brake rap" using 6 ovals... rather it was using the "brake bar" from a cavers rap deal, or a baby angle, and just one oval.... when I started climbing this was a hot topic because several known fatalities had occurred. When I first went to the Valley, the fellows I started climbing with threw mine into the Merced River and instructed me on how to rig the 6 biner system, the munter and the dulfersitz all good simple methods.

All methods are OK as long as you don't overlook the obvious flaws, in this case "the knot that went past the ring"

I follow that to the "root cause" - IMHO- rapping on a "belay devise" down one strand only, takes out the basic redundancy of having both lines in your hands that go around the anchor.

After I tried rappelling on a grigri I was shocked that folks would even consider it a valid use of this tool (IMHO).

I don't like to use stuff that is ..... "tricky and takes practice" to use.

But call me old and stuck in my ways..... you wouldn't be the first.

Guyzo wrote:

I don't like to use stuff that is ..... "tricky and takes practice" to use.

Practice is one thing, but "tricky" is another. I can do without relying on "tricky" things when non-tricky devices for the activity at hand abound.

Yeah, Mike, by report (What caused system to fail), they usually tied a back-up w/ 'biner and then removed the 'biner after each rap, then repeated. On the last rap, he forgot to add the back-up w/biner. Initial knots (with two diff. diam. ropes) passed through, and no back-up w/'biner.

Very sad. And sobering. I know climbers really like keeping their rope systems light, but... When I was in college, couldn't afford two ropes of any diameter. We used to just tie on our partners' lead rope as the extra "tag" for full length raps.

edit: seems Mike removed his post.

Misha wrote:

x15x15 wrote:

Misha wrote:Hold on... Is this the Brian I am thinking of!?

if its the same brian i thought of, i know it is not. i know you have climbed with the brian i know from sierra madre.

RIP Brian.

Unfortunately, it is the same Brian I thought of. We hung out at Lovers Leap over Labor Day in 2007. It just went from tragic to flat out awful
We were topping out on Selaginella, about half a mile away from Serenity Crack when this accident happened

i am really sorry to all family and friends.

My condolences to all who knew him. How few the degrees of separation there really are in our community. RIP