Maybe I should be embarrassed to say this, but I have no idea what KISS is. I think I’m starting to understand why people that have been in the game awhile are always so surprised at how they survived getting started.

Keep It Simple Stupid





Another old adage to this game.... If it works, leave it alone and don't fuk with it!



The Simple Process has been around for many decades and kept things very safe for a long ass time.

These guys used em and did rather well...



Etc....

As I stated, the "Industry" in general has incorporated so many fancy procedures and made things do much more difficult than it was when all this really started.

Example, to get Certified now as a Basic Rock or Alpine Guide, it takes two sessions of over three weeks or 150 hours of training each.

The Chief wrote:Keep It Simple Stupid





Another old adage to this game.... If it works, leave it alone and don't fuk with it!

+10

outofstep80 wrote:

welle wrote:Another thing I don't do, but ought to is making sure your partner knows how to lower off the anchored belay - not many leaders know how to safely do it.

Hmmm, I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. Possible something I need to learn? Are you talking about a situation where someone leads the route, brings up the 2nd while belaying off the anchors and not their harness, and then the leader needs to lower the 2nd? In this case you are saying, make sure they know how to lower the 2nd as you would be using something like a reverso that locks when weighted?

Yes, earlier this year (early summer/spring) a woman was dropped in an uncontrolled lower-off in the Gunks. Not many know that you need to redirect the braking strand of the rope and also may need a friction hitch to backup. Just following the manufacturer's directions is not that easy in practice and results in an uncontrolled drop...

welle wrote:Yes, earlier this year (early summer/spring) a woman was dropped in an uncontrolled lower-off in the Gunks. Not many know that you need to redirect the braking strand of the rope and also may need a friction hitch to backup. Just following the manufacturer's directions is not that easy in practice and results in an uncontrolled drop...

As I remember correctly, this fancy device was at play....

Just an example of the many complicated devices that are around today.

I think it was a plaquette style device - either Petzl Reverso or BD ATC Guide... I was talking to local guides during a self-rescue course and they said, IIRC, the only true plaquette device that is equally good for both belaying and lowering is Kong GiGi, which is an ultimate expression of simplicity:

Ok, so your saying you should basically use a directional that would keep the brake end in a semi brake position to create more friction?

I use a BD guide. My confusion is this, if you have it set on the anchor and it's set properly it locks under the climbers weight. I was actually thinking the hard part would be lowering the person period.

I can definitley see where a non "locking" device could be difficult to control in ackward positions. Sorry for the confustion but seems like I may be missing something important. haha

Check out this article - it's written by a local guide: http://bigfootmountainguides.com/2010/0 ... y-devices/

Actually, when I lower anyone in this type scenario, I will use the "Direct" Method off of the PP, but, I will direct the working line above through a solid bomber piece directional which then returns the line downward. Kind of a 1-2 type haul method but in the reverse. It allows me the opportunity to have better friction control on the device and affords an emergency tie off point if something were to go wrong. Something I learned in my Big Wall days when having to lower a Pig on retreat to lower stance when/if I didn't use the Rap on the Pig method.

The Chief wrote:I and all those old farts that I climb with on a regular basis, revisit this KISS every time we tie in.

Many if not all of all these old farts that I hang with, incorporated the KISS syndrome as an engram many decades ago. It was how/what we were taught a long ass time ago when climbing was indeed a very simple exercise/pastime.


2" X 6' Webbing for a Swami, Yose Bowline, 150' X 11mm Rope, Belay/Rap (Sticht/Figure-8) Device with a Locker, hand full of Nuts/Biners/Runners, Shoes, bag of Gym Chalk... go climb within ones ability and have some safe fun.



Seems that time has over complicated climbing and made it into something that it never was intended to be.... A multi-Billion Dollar a Year Gear/Certification/Guiding Industry.

You are a "youngster" - when I started, it was a 120 foot 3/4 inch nylon (but not dynamic) rope tied around your waist with a bowline on a coil, a "hot crotch rappel", pitons and a hammer, mountain boots, and nobody ever heard of using chalk. We had to practice something called the dynamic belay - eg. letting the rope run and stopping the leader fall gradually... No belay device - under the butt for leader belays and around the waist for top belays.

I totally agree on KISS and think that many modern climbers are perhaps a bit too dependant on their equipment.

Fred Spicker wrote:You are a "youngster" - when I started, it was a 120 foot 3/4 inch nylon (but not dynamic) rope tied around your waist with a bowline on a coil, a "hot crotch rappel", pitons and a hammer, mountain boots, and nobody ever heard of using chalk. We had to practice something called the dynamic belay - eg. letting the rope run and stopping the leader fall gradually... No belay device - under the butt for leader belays and around the waist for top belays.

I totally agree on KISS and think that many modern climbers are perhaps a bit too dependant on their equipment.

See what I mean!

I guarantee ya that it will get even simpler if old Fred Beckey were to respond.

Simplicity..... it will indeed keep ya alive.

outofstep80 wrote:How often do you discuss with your climbing partner, before starting a climb – especially multi-pitch climbs, the type of verbal commands and rope commands you prefer to use? (This question is especially posed with regards to partners you climb with on a regular basis.)

Verbal commands: I don't check with my regular partner. We checked often when we started climbing together, but after more than 10 years we pretty much "speak the same language" (as dingus said). Non-verbal commands get reviewed since we don't use them often enough to be sure.

outofstep80 wrote:I use a BD guide. My confusion is this, if you have it set on the anchor and it's set properly it locks under the climbers weight. I was actually thinking the hard part would be lowering the person period.

This video by Eli Helmuth is very well done.

welle wrote:I was talking to local guides during a self-rescue course and they said, IIRC, the only true plaquette device that is equally good for both belaying and lowering is Kong GiGi

The Gi-Gi is good in rescue applications for a couple of reasons. First, the two full-size eyelets allow one to put two devices in series for additional friction or create an extra attachment point. Second, one can clip one of the two slots and pass the rope through the other, obtaining a setup that can be changed from autolocking to lowering and vice versa.

On the other hand, the Gi-Gi is not good for leader belay, and must be used with caution in all cases. A couple of things may happen when employing it in autolock mode: First, when used with one rope, the rope may turn around causing the plaquette to lose its autolocking ability. Second, when used to belay two seconds, if one second weighs the rope and the other second falls, the plaquette may not block the rope of the falling climber. Of course, these problems are not specific to Kong's device and are much more likely to occur if the belayer lets go of the brake strand.

Thanks for the article and the video. Seems pretty straight forward. Good stuff to know.