Compromise on incomplete pages?

by **Bob Sihler** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:19 am

Well, tomorrow begins this experiment; the first page I'm watching becomes "eligible" for change to a custom object.

Even then, I think there needs to be a time limit so that the page doesn't languish forever as clutter. A week? Two weeks?

I hope this works; it's at least worth a try. If it doesn't, I will probably just start going the delete route after a day or two unless it is obvious that substantial work is being done.

by **mrchad9** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:47 am

sjarelkwint wrote:Was just wondering "when" is a page finished? Yours wasn't, was it within the 24 hours rule? No! 2 days rule? No!

I think some people have more things to do than creating a page within 2 days. Most people don't have an html-editor at home ...

Well, you seem to have completely missed the points that Bob, Chief, Bill, Mark, Sarah, V Islander, rebelgrizz, and I have made. Though I suppose all those posts were easy to overlook.

by **kamil** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:49 am

Bob Sihler wrote:Well, tomorrow begins this experiment; the first page I'm watching becomes "eligible" for change to a custom object.

Even then, I think there needs to be a time limit so that the page doesn't languish forever as clutter. A week? Two weeks?

I hope this works; it's at least worth a try. If it doesn't, I will probably just start going the delete route after a day or two unless it is obvious that substantial work is being done.

Hmm, I reckon anyone can call his custom object "my roadworks" or so and keep it forever.

by **mrchad9** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:02 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:
mrchad9 wrote:
sjarelkwint wrote:Was just wondering "when" is a page finished? Yours wasn't, was it within the 24 hours rule? No! 2 days rule? No!

I think some people have more things to do than creating a page within 2 days. Most people don't have an html-editor at home ...

Well, you seem to have completely missed the points that Bob, Chief, Bill, Mark, Sarah, V Islander, rebelgrizz, and I have made. Though I suppose all those posts were easy to overlook.

Yes I did, wasn't clear

When is a page finished for you?
(First I have to say your pages look awesome!)

If someone would think a page is incomplete as long as the climbing history ain't on the page, yours would be incomplete ...

As long as ther's no concensus about what has to be on a pagen everything is complete ...

Thank you Sir!

True- I don't include climbing history. I don't care much for who does what first, second, etc... As far as when a page is finished- I see what you are saying- perhaps saying 'incomplete' pages are not technically the correct wording, we are really talking about items that are have obvious and significant omissions, not items that cannot be even further enhanced later.

No one has said a page has to have everything- but there is a minimum. Bob laid out some criteria even... a small overview, distance, elevation gain, driving directions, red tape... stuff like that. The page doesn't have to be wonderful, but a page with 3-4 sentences doesn't cut it. If it had everything but one or two items even, I doubt anyone would be asking that it be deleted. If it looks great, but is missing the red tape, no big deal. If it has everything but the elevation then no one is going to delete it, but rather ask them to add the missing information.

by **Bob Sihler** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:56 pm

Thank you for the feedback, everyone; this thread served its purpose, and I've moved ahead with my plan. See this post: http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=55038.

Should I keep this thread open or lock it but save it for posterity?

by **Mark Doiron** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:48 pm

Bob Sihler wrote:... Should I keep this thread open or lock it but save it for posterity?

Leave it open, Bob. And thanks so much to all of the elves, and especially to you, for contributing so much to make SP the great site that it is. --mark d.

by **mrchad9** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:56 pm

Yes- Agree with Mark. See no driver to lock it. Not enough hate in the thread yet.

by **Lolli** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:53 am

sjarelkwint wrote:
Lolli wrote:
sjarelkwint wrote:Pages that use 2 different screen-size settings?

http://www.summitpost.org/area/range/15 ... lands.html

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix that.

Was just wondering "when" is a page finished? Yours wasn't, was it within the 24 hours rule? No! 2 days rule? No!

I think some people have more things to do than creating a page within 2 days. Most people don't have an html-editor at home ...

Well, first, I think that page was considered done. Mistakes can always be fixed afterwards. Before I pulled it it had 62 votes, also by people who are picky about what they vote on.

Second, Bob is ambitious as an elf, and have very good intentions. He has also earlier belonged to the group who wants pages done fast. But, as I said earlier, this discussion is not new, it has appeared several times. Since this is a site in which contributions are made by free will and by people who work in different ways, I don't think it can be justified to demand a certain way of making them. A work in obvious progress is another thing than an empty or abandoned page. I'm sure there's quite a few among some of the more prominent contributors who haven't read these threads, and if their work in progress is pulled or moved, there will be hell raised.

I suggest a little humbleness when it comes to dealing with members who actually gives something, who contributes. Not only those with a lot of pages, but all. This is not paid work. To lose contributions because somebody gets pissed, or think "I can't do it in two days anyway" and therefore don't contribute, is to the detriment of the site.

The arguments that it can be done, is not valid, as I see it. It doesn't matter. People likes to do things their own way, and if somebody else does it one or the other way, is of no consequence whatsoever.

I can of course only talk for myself. What I believe will happen may or may not. I do good pages, and I want to keep on doing them in my own way. I haven't done so many, maybe 20 or so, but they all have taken time to create. Few have been done as fast as in two days. To the knots page I drew all the illustrations while I made it.
I will be mighty pissed if any work during progress is pulled. I know that for sure, at least.

by **Bob Sihler** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:41 am

In case any of you who have been following this thread and/or posting are too lazy to click on the link, here is what I ended up posting:

Bob Sihler wrote:Because I take a special interest in submissions to the site, especially reducing the clutter of bad and incomplete pages, I offer this in hopes that it will help members. Soon, we will update the FAQ's accordingly.

This is to inform, not for debate, so the thread will be locked. Occasionally, I will bump it so that new contributors have a reasonable chance of seeing and reading this.

At the very minimum, this is the definition of a complete mountain page (and the general idea transfers to routes and areas as well):

There is an overview telling us something about the peak, preferably what makes it worth climbing.

There are good enough directions so that with the page and a good map, the user can get to the mountain without needing any other resource.

There is route information telling about length, difficulty, and elevation gain. There should be details about exposure, rock quality, tricky or dangerous spots, etc. as appropriate. If the route information is not on the main page, it is on an attached route page.

There is at least a primary image (an amazing number lack one or any pictures at all).

There should be information on camping and red tape, even if just to tell us that there is no camping or red tape.

This makes a complete page, not necessarily a good page. There are many mediocre "complete" pages, and they often become candidates for adoption.

If a page is submitted and is not complete after two full calendar days, it may be deleted or changed to a custom object; in the latter case, you can continue to work on the page at your own pace and, when finished, change back to the desired object type or copy/paste to resubmit it as a brand-new page.

So to be clear: if you submit on October 1, the page may be deleted or changed if it is not complete by October 4. It does not mean this will happen, just that it can. There may be cases where staff members make exceptions, such as if a member with an established record of excellent pages is working on a big project and needs more time.

Although it is not a formal rule on SummitPost, there is general agreement that if you haven't climbed it, you shouldn't post it. There are a few understandable exceptions, but they are very few. If you haven't climbed the mountain or the route, please don't submit a page for it. If you have not been to the area and do not have much firsthand experience with and knowledge of it, please don't make an area/range page. Share your knowledge and experience, not your research.

While this technically applies to any page type, the chief concern is with mountains, areas, and routes, which are the meat and potatoes of SummitPost. Trip reports matter as well, but to a lesser degree.

-------------------------

Likely Question: How can I avoid having my page deleted or changed?

Answer: Make sure your work is complete when you submit it, including the attachment and placement of pictures. Most top contributors to the site do exactly this or finish a page within an hour or two.

Do your work offline. Add your pictures beforehand. Then put it all together.

Not good enough? Need to see your work as you do it? I like to do that, too. So create a custom object and use it as a layout page. You can add all your pictures do all your text and layout at your own pace. When finished, create a new object and just copy/paste your work. Yes, you will have to reattach pictures to the gallery, but that is a small price to pay to be considerate to other members and to make sure that SP's climbing-related content, its core value and purpose, looks as good as it can to the thousands of members and non-members using the site.

Thank you!

Note that it doesn't say a page will be removed or changed after two full days, just that it may. That leaves me and any other staff member room to use discretion. Hopefully, it won't be abused.

I am not so sure about the two-day rule, though. Right now, there are two new route pages that appear headed nowhere. According to the above, I still have to wait until Friday to do something about them. It's not right that they take up space on the What's New page, and this makes me reconsider the suggestions some made to use a one-day rule. But nothing's decided yet.

by **Lolli** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:01 am

I think your judgement and discretion will solve most of it anyway. You've been around a long time, you know many of the members and you know what they turn out.

The guidelines you put forward is a good help to see how you are thinking, but in the end - I believe it will be much up to you, and the other elves.

by **mrchad9** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:09 am

I'm sure there's quite a few among some of the more prominent contributors who haven't read these threads, and if their work in progress is pulled or moved, there will be hell raised.

I think Bob has made it clear that he will apply the rule in an appropriate way. If a member is truly prominent, and has a history of consistent good contributions, there may be a different approach than with other folks. There is nothing to worry about.

by **JasonH** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:00 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:I think some people have more things to do than creating a page within 2 days. Most people don't have an html-editor at home ...

That's a poor excuse. True most people do don't have HTML editor, but everyone has word processor. So there is no reason why a person can't have their page written before they post it and kick a completed page off the What's New page.

by **JasonH** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:05 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:Extracting from word to html doesn't give you a w3c safe code so google-searchengines would give faults on it ...

Hey can you speak English. I don't speak freaky-deaky Dutch. :lol:

by **Proterra** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:34 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:Started building my first list
Don't even think about deleting it bob!

Let's wait and see....

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 6&start=56

by **Proterra** » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:47 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:
Proterra wrote:
sjarelkwint wrote:Started building my first list
Don't even think about deleting it bob!

Let's wait and see....

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 6&start=56

You nazi!

Did you find it by the way on my Fort William page?

Compromise on incomplete pages?

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