Dogs-Wildlife Refuge

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Dow Williams

 
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Dogs-Wildlife Refuge

by Dow Williams » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:10 pm

One would think this is such a simple concept for retired, well educated (read-been around the block a time or two), folks to comprehend. Rednecks, well sure, I am fully aware of the dog and cock fighting crew. Been around my share of those folks in the deep south. But I have observed two very interesting phenomena, well over a thousand miles apart, both occurring with retired, appear to be well educated, individuals.

In Canmore, this older dude, say 60 yrs old or so, allowed his dogs off leash, one of which had a bit of rottweiler in it. Canmore has a strict leash law because we have elk, etc, in town. Sure enough, he let his dogs off leash and they had sorted out a female cow and started attacking it. By the time I noticed the ruckus out my window, it was foaming at the mouth and getting dangerously close to suffering a heat stroke. It defended itself well, but both of these dogs appeared to have experience in pack kill mentality and both weighed in at over 100lbs. The owner stood by watching as though somehow entertained. I left the comfortable confines of my home and picked up a rock along the way and put myself between the dogs and the elk and thus she managed to cross the river unabated. I told the gentleman, pretty directly as most of you could imagine who know me, that if his dogs attacked me at that point, I would kill them and had the ability to do it. That appeared close to going down until he finally calmed them down.

My wife and other neighbors had already called animal control and the dude was fined heavily, I believe it is $1000 in Canmore. Several months later, two armed RCMP officers show up at my door. Turned out, the dude was fighting his fine and on top of that wanted me arrested for threatening his dogs. It is a criminal offense in Canmore to threaten domestic animals. For 30 minutes these officers stayed in my home and tried to convince me to say I would not do it again and that I understood it was an offense. I was polite, but would not give them what they wanted, even under threat of being arrested. They knew I was a popular wildlife advocate in town and if they did arrest me, the media might have a field day with it. They chose to leave even though they did not get what they wanted.

Now, allow your mind to travel all the way down to St. George, UT. When we are in the desert, we live on the edge of a wildlife reserve dedicated mostly to the Desert Tortoise. Again, dogs are not allowed off leash. If dogs hovered over said tortoises, it could cause them to urinate in fear and possibly expire of dehydration. Some dogs have been known to haul said tortoises back to their yards and so forth. So here this lady is with a bona fide bird dog. She lets it off leash and it chases absolutely everything. We (my neighbors and wife) have asked her repeatedly to not allow it to run off leash. This morning, I was admiring a quail get together. I don't know what was going on, but my back yard was central station this morning. Here comes this older lady, in her 60's, seems quite educated when you talk to her.....bird dog running all over the place chasing the quail and boom, one flys into my window and breaks its neck. She acts like nothing happens and keeps going. I pick up the dead quail, catch up with her on the paved trail out by the road, give her dog the quail and ask if he is going to eat it (knowing full well a bird dog will not eat a bird). He puts it in his mouth, then drops it. Her response was that we should not have built our homes in front of hers blocking her view??? Now what the $&*# does that have to do with a dog off leash and a dead quail? I left her, the dog and the dead bird on the paved trail hoping that by her getting up close and personal with this dead quail , it might have some effect. As I am leaving this scene, some dude goes by on his bike and threatens to call the police....because I dropped the dead bird at her feet. Dejavu I thought, so I turn around and threaten to harm her dog if I caught it killing more wild life without cause or use. I wanted to make sure that I at least committed yet another criminal offence of sorts in the name of fighting off leash dogs. Dangerous folks like me need to be removed form wildlife preserves so domestic dogs can run unabated.

The big question is.....red necks sure....cock fighting, dog fighting, target practice, poaching....you name it. Old retired folks in communities whose lot value is actually predicated by being positioned near pristine wildlife areas!!!!! Why do you want to live in such a place if you have no respect for wildlife and stand by and watch your domestic dogs haze the crap out of same??? At least with the red necks I know what I am getting and would not be so surprised or bewildered.

If she would at least have offered to take the quail home and eat it, I would have been much more amiable about the whole situation.

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Day Hiker

 
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Re: Dogs-Wildlife Refuge

by Day Hiker » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:25 pm

Dow Williams wrote:. . . if his dogs attacked me at that point, I would kill them. . . .
. . .
It is a criminal offense in Canmore to threaten domestic animals.


I would think it's perfectly legal to use lethal force to defend yourself. You can't just kill something or someone when there is a way for you to escape. But when there is no other escape, I certainly WOULD use lethal force to defend myself or my family from anything -- dog, person, or whatever.

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Arthur Digbee

 
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Re: Dogs-Wildlife Refuge

by Arthur Digbee » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:41 pm

Dow Williams wrote:. . . if his dogs attacked me at that point, I would kill them. . . .
. . .
It is a criminal offense in Canmore to threaten domestic animals.


I'd love to know exactly how the statute is worded. You could try the argument that the domestic animals did not understand what you were saying so they could not have felt threatened. Only the owner was threatened. :)

I agree with the overall thrust of your complaint though - - what is with these people? You have a dog, you have a leash, use the damned leash.

There is a photo on SP of my dog in a designated wilderness with a leash on, so yes, I hold myself to the same standard.

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Dow Williams

 
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Re: Dogs-Wildlife Refuge

by Dow Williams » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:43 pm

Day Hiker wrote:
Dow Williams wrote:. . . if his dogs attacked me at that point, I would kill them. . . .
. . .
It is a criminal offense in Canmore to threaten domestic animals.


I would think it's perfectly legal to use lethal force to defend yourself. You can't just kill something or someone when there is a way for you to escape. But when there is no other escape, I certainly WOULD use lethal force to defend myself or my family from anything -- dog, person, or whatever.


In all fairness regarding that point, I am sure I added some choice language in there, i.e., "if I catch your *#&* dogs attacking wildlife again, I will kill the $%&*#'s." With plenty of witnesses to hear it. There, that makes me a little more felonish I think. Needless to say, I thought I was going to be taking on two 100lb feverish dogs with a rock. Suppose I released a bit of andreline into the system.

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by MoapaPk » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:45 pm

I think you are experiencing the modern revenge mentality of self-indulgent neighbors. I feel for you, but can't do anything more than commiserate. Saint George is a pretty redneck area, especially the outskirts.

A friend who lives on the outskirts of Albuquerque, in Tijeras Canyon, has a fence all around his property, mainly to keep out the (illegally) unleashed dogs. His wife came in one day from shopping, and hadn't yet closed the gate, when the neighbors' dog came in the yard, jumped over a pen, and killed all of his ducks and rabbits.

They did get a legal order against the neighbors. Then a few days later, Child Social Services showed up discussing all these anonymous calls, charging his family with child sexual abuse. The wife taught music lessons at home, and this retaliation was very hard for her to take; the onus to clear her name was on her.

The more ass-holish the neighbor, the less he ever wants to be called "wrong", and the more likely he is to resort to every dirty trick that a decent person wouldn't even consider.

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Day Hiker

 
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by Day Hiker » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:47 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Saint George is a pretty redneck area, especially the outskirts.


Probably true. But I think Canmore is in Alberta, definitely in Saint George's way out outskirts.

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MoapaPk

 
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by MoapaPk » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:51 pm

Day Hiker wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:Saint George is a pretty redneck area, especially the outskirts.


Probably true. But I think Canmore is in Alberta, definitely in Saint George's way out outskirts.


I was referring to the fourth paragraph in the OP; I think that is about St George; perhaps I misread. There aren't too many desert tortoises in Alberta.

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ExcitableBoy

 
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by ExcitableBoy » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:54 pm

I like to trail run in the mountains near my home. These mountains are all either state or county park land or state forest and are all well signed informing users that a leash law is in effect. The VAST majority of dogs I meet are off leash. I have been charged a number of times by dogs. When I confront the owners I have been told basically that they realize there is a leash law but I should just chill out. Makes me very angry.

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MoapaPk

 
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by MoapaPk » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:06 pm

ExcitibleBoy wrote:I like to trail run in the mountains near my home. These mountains are all either state or county park land or state forest and are all well signed informing users that a leash law is in effect. The VAST majority of dogs I meet are off leash. I have been charged a number of times by dogs. When I confront the owners I have been told basically that they realize there is a leash law but I should just chill out. Makes me very angry.


I bet I would never think of it, but it might help to get a photo of the unleashed dog(s) and owners.

Even when I trail run, I rarely have problems with unleashed dogs; around here, the owners seem very quick to control the dogs. I usually yell ahead, so the owners will know they could have a problem in seconds.

But I wonder what the legal situation would be if you used one of those small cans of mace, the kind made for use by joggers?

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Day Hiker

 
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by Day Hiker » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:40 pm

zodis wrote:If these dogs are harrassing wildlife, they should be shot, and in Pennsylvania, it is legal to do so.

I agree. And in this case, the owner should be shot too. But that part is just my opinion, not the law.

Dow Williams wrote:The owner stood by watching as though somehow entertained.

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taxinvestor

 
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by taxinvestor » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:43 pm

Yankees were responsible in your two instances, not Southerners - don't drag us into it!

Put the blame where it belongs - dog owners who don't use leashes - anything else borders on racism (the person and the dog).

-- A Southern Rotty Owner

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Diggler

 
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by Diggler » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:51 pm

taxinvestor wrote:Yankees were responsible in your two instances, not Southerners - don't drag us into it!

Put the blame where it belongs - dog owners who don't use leashes - anything else borders on racism (the person and the dog).

-- A Southern Rotty Owner


Since when are Mormons Yankees? I seem to recall that they had to be told forcefully that Utah was actually part of the Union, & that they had to comply with their laws. :wink:

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Diggler

 
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by Diggler » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:54 pm

Oh yeah, back on topic. Totally agree with you on this one, Dow. Offending dogs & their owners are my pet peeve. There are places where dogs running around freely is acceptable, & there are places where it's inappropriate. Important, should be essential, to understand which is which as a dog owner.

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Dow Williams

 
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by Dow Williams » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:05 pm

taxinvestor wrote:Yankees were responsible in your two instances, not Southerners - don't drag us into it!

Put the blame where it belongs - dog owners who don't use leashes - anything else borders on racism (the person and the dog).

-- A Southern Rotty Owner


Not to mention most rural southerners I know would have thanked me for retrieveing them the bird and "ate that damn bird right there and then" ("Church"-Lyle Lovet, one of my favorite songs). Then I would feel much better about the whole ordeal. I was told once by a wise man in the hood where I did some biz that most "rockweiler" (Atlanta Spelling) and pit bull owners have small appendages, but I don't think that was an official scientific study or anything. All I knew was back in those days, the dude who did not have a dog on a chain was the one I had to keep an eye on. He was ready to man up, versus let someone/thing else fight his battles for him.

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John Duffield

 
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by John Duffield » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:20 pm

I really hate to see dogs attack wildlife. I don't like to be attacked by dogs either and have a few scars. When I was 12, some dogs got in my yard and killed some of my rabbits. I sent one home with a .22 round in it. An angry call to the owner. They didn't come back.

What goes around comes around. There was a chicken farm nearby. My dog came home one night with chicken feathers. The next night with a bullet wound. Got the message. So did my dog.

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