Woodie Hopper wrote:The body has no mechanism for cannibalizing "unneeded RBCs" other than removing them after they become damaged. The lifespan of 120 days is due to the average amount of time it takes for the immune system to recognize damaged RBC membranes and eat them in lay terms. If you know of a natural method whereby excess RBCs are removed by a faster process in the body, I'd like review your source.

Search on the term neocytolysis. The early culling of red blood cells has been observed both in high altitude mountaineers returning to the lowlands and in astronauts while in space.

JD (and Ben),

Although there has been some evidence that there is some removal of younger RBCs for astronauts and climbers returning to lower altitudes, there hasn't been enough reserarch to determine exactly what to expect and reproducibility of the results. In other words, more work is needed before generalizations should be made to high altitude climbing. Here is a good review article from earlier this year that summarizes prior literature and research on the topic. http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/ ... 00054/full

This is all well and good, but my point is that artificially boosting your RBC count for the purpose of improving high altitude performance by injecting EPO increases your risks related to thrombosis including pulmonary emboli, myocardial infarction and stroke.

I hope no one reading this forum would seriously consider doing this.

Woodie

Woodie Hopper wrote:JD (and Ben),

Although there has been some evidence that there is some removal of younger RBCs for astronauts and climbers returning to lower altitudes, there hasn't been enough reserarch to determine exactly what to expect and reproducibility of the results. In other words, more work is needed before generalizations should be made to high altitude climbing. Here is a good review article from earlier this year that summarizes prior literature and research on the topic. http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/ ... 00054/full

This is all well and good, but my point is that artificially boosting your RBC count for the purpose of improving high altitude performance by injecting EPO increases your risks related to thrombosis including pulmonary emboli, myocardial infarction and stroke.

I hope no one reading this forum would seriously consider doing this.

Woodie

Plus Steve House said it was bad for you.

Woodie Hopper wrote:JD (and Ben),

Although there has been some evidence that there is some removal of younger RBCs for astronauts and climbers returning to lower altitudes, there hasn't been enough reserarch to determine exactly what to expect and reproducibility of the results. In other words, more work is needed before generalizations should be made to high altitude climbing. Here is a good review article from earlier this year that summarizes prior literature and research on the topic. http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/ ... 00054/full

This is all well and good, but my point is that artificially boosting your RBC count for the purpose of improving high altitude performance by injecting EPO increases your risks related to thrombosis including pulmonary emboli, myocardial infarction and stroke.

I hope no one reading this forum would seriously consider doing this.

Woodie

This whole conversation needs to stay firmly planted in the hypothetical. Everyone knows the risks of blood-doping... it kills people. Cyclists using EPO and other methods have to keep a bike mounted on a trainer in their hotel room and set an alarm to wake them up every hour so they can get on the bike and get their heart rate up, lest their blood clot whilst they sleep and kill them.

But they still do it. Otherwise extremely healthy guys, professional athletes at the absolute top of their game... and they do it. So I have to wonder if this is something that does happen in segments of the climbing world- not necessarily just the record-setting, first-ascending athletic side, but possibly even among the rich weekend-warriors who pay commercial outfits to drag them up 8k peaks.

Look at it like this - the biggest market for performance enhancing drugs in the cycling world isn't pros- it's amateurs. Guys who do NOT get paid to win races, but still will do anything to win races. They also have nothing to lose, except sanctions and shame... but they don't lose their jobs if they come up hot on a post-race piss test.

Some guys will do crazy shit for personal gratification and bragging rights.

Ben Beckerich wrote:Some guys will do crazy shit for personal gratification and bragging rights.

You mean like climbing mountains and frozen waterfalls and cliffs?

ExcitableBoy wrote:You mean like climbing mountains and frozen waterfalls and cliffs?

Indeed. Doesn't seem like such a far stretch, does it?

Ben Beckerich wrote:

ExcitableBoy wrote:You mean like climbing mountains and frozen waterfalls and cliffs?

Indeed. Doesn't seem like such a far stretch, does it?

I suspect the adverse effects of EPO at altitude (dehydration, increased risk of frostbite) would outweigh the potential benefits.

Yury wrote:I suspect that for professionals like Ueli Schleck who spend a lot of time in the mountains EPO would not provide any benefit.
When you spend more than a month at higher altitude the number of red blood cells goes up even without EPO.
So these guys have significantly higher erythrocyte count than other people.
As a result they already have a high risk of blood clots etc.
In my case after a month to one and a half months at a moderate altitude my erythrocyte count has exceeded the top boundary of a normal range.
You can compare results of your blood test before and after mountaineering trip and assess your own risk.

Good point!

albanberg wrote:

Yury wrote:I suspect that for professionals like Ueli Schleck who spend a lot of time in the mountains EPO would not provide any benefit.
When you spend more than a month at higher altitude the number of red blood cells goes up even without EPO.
So these guys have significantly higher erythrocyte count than other people.
As a result they already have a high risk of blood clots etc.
In my case after a month to one and a half months at a moderate altitude my erythrocyte count has exceeded the top boundary of a normal range.
You can compare results of your blood test before and after mountaineering trip and assess your own risk.

Good point!

It is a good point, but to clarify, any red cell increase from spending weeks at high altitude is from EPO. Indogenous EPO (produced by our kidneys) vs. exogenous EPO (injected)... which I assume is understood, but I wanted to elaborate in the direction of indogenous EPO. Training at high altitude will increase the bodies production of EPO in a safe, physiologic manner. So don't take it with a needle, take it by training at elevation. As a cyclist, my understanding is that training at elevation for two weeks will do the trick. Four weeks is even better. Elevations as low as 5000 feet are the minimum. Elevations at around 8000 feet are more ideal. Much above 8000 feet, and the reduction in quality of training and recovery begins to overwhelm the gains.

Along these lines of training, there are two basic schools of thought. One is to live at lower elevations (ideally around sea level) but train high (5000-8000 feet). This first school is along the lines of my first paragraph. The other is to train at lower elevations and spend time recovering at higher elevations. Both schools show benefits. Both have to do with increasing the bodies natural production of EPO. The jury is out on which of the two schools is the better.

Stefan wrote:Steck does a 2.15 marathon, that`s how you do it...

And why not use cocaine? Might be more efficient on long days?

Where did you see that Steck ran a 2:15? That is really fast and would qualify him for the US Olympic team marathon trials. According to this website Steck ran the 2014 New York Marathon in 3:09. That's a good time, but is about as different from running a 2:15 as climbing 5.11 is from climbing 5.14.

http://www.athlinks.com/Result/Search#!athlete/ueli%20steck

(Edited to correct pre-caffeinated sentence logical structure)

JHH60 wrote:

Stefan wrote:Steck does a 2.15 marathon, that`s how you do it...

Where did you see that Steck ran a 2:15? That is really fast and would qualify him for the US Olympic team marathon trials. According to this website Steck ran the 2014 New York Marathon in 3:09. That's a good time, but is about as different from running a 3:09 as climbing 5.14 is from climbing 5.11.

http://www.athlinks.com/Result/Search#!athlete/ueli%20steck

Maybe he is thinking of Ueli Steidl, who is running marathons in the 2:15 range and is on the German Olympic team.