It was the summer of 1996 when Erik Ericksson asked me if I would do Yosemite’s Astroman with him. We had been doing some climbing together, but nothing bigger than local climbs at Joshua Tree, Tahquitz and Suicide, and sport climbs around Bishop. Eric was and is a hero of mine. He has over 50 El Cap routes, an 8000 meter peak alpine style, numerous Canadian ice scarefests, and regularly climbs 5.12/5.13 rock routes, so when he “popped the question” I was surprised and excited.

We spun up to The Valley, did Wheat Thin, Butterfingers and Butterballs to get tuned, and the next day got an early start on Astroman. We swung leads and climbed fast. I will never forget leading the last pitch, a poorly protected 5.10 face uncharacteristic of the rest of the route’s steep cracks. I could smell the pine forest on top, and when I got up and set up to belay Erik I was in a state of bliss. The last thing I was thinking about was the fall I took 7 pitches below or the fall Erik took on one of his leads.

On top, we quietly packed our gear and walked across the top of Washington Column toward the descent gully. Then Erik said “So, can you come back next week to try it again?”

I knew instantly what he meant, but I was slow to answer. Erik fired a second round: “Well, you’re not satisfied are you??!!”

Two weeks later we did the route. The tension and commitment was intense. At the time it was very exciting. Today it is one of the best memories I have from climbing. I learned a real lesson from Erik on that climb. The higher you set the bar the greater the reward.

I’m not posting this to spray. Astroman is far from the cutting edge in today’s climbing scene, hardly something to brag about. For me at the time, the event and the lesson were huge.

You guys got me psyched- I'm gonna send something next time I go out. It's just going to be 5.9 or WI4, but I'm going to do it.

-Mark

When I climbed the Owen-Spalding a few months ago I slipped on an ice patch and fell... but landed feet first on a ledge 2 feet below. Did I climb it clean?

Does it really matter? as long as you are having fun and not killing yourself or anybody else I do not care. If you grab a biner at the crux to get above it so what? I find that people who are really hard nosed and fanatical about climbing "free" and always talking about their "sick proj" are not fun to be around. Just sayin, don't beat me up for it.

kheegster wrote:When I climbed the Owen-Spalding a few months ago I slipped on an ice patch and fell... but landed feet first on a ledge 2 feet below. Did I climb it clean?

That's not falling; that's "dynamic downclimbing."

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Guyzo,, absolutely. No question that is ONE of the issues at work.

But sometimes the Old Guard uses Old Ethics to hold younger generations in check. Please bear in mind I have no one who posted to this thread in mind, not you, not ksolem, not anyone. I admire yalls styles immensely.

What I am trying to convey is a sense of climbing style is both generational and deeply personal. I am strong enough of will and spirit to take my own decisions. I choose where I will get along and where I will rebel.

I am all about honoring the theme if you will, of an area, be that Tuolumne, Jailhouse or the gym.

And today's youth is going to do what they are going to do anyway, same as we did back in the day.

Cheers bro
DMT

Dingus I figgure that if one wishes to improve their skills on "RockClimbing" and only "RockClimbing". - (not freaking "Alpine Climbing" - sheesh some folks can't tell the difference)

The "style" is all important. One improves as they get stronger and build up their experience of different situations.

Heck... I guess you could say style is a generational thing but I would differ.

"Good Style" stays the same forever. Those boys in Dresden have some of the most ridged rules ever regarding style and that is why they cracked the 5.10 barrier more than a century ago. This style was carried to the east coast in pre WW11 days and that is why the Gunks produced all those great climbers in the 30/40/and50. The Brits have a very certain style and they have produced some of the most talented climbers to ever lace up a boot.

Right here in California, climbers developed and perfected a "style" in the mid sixties that catapulted many local boys and girls to the absolute top of the climbing world. This was/is a pretty eazy style to understand, so eazy that even ice climbers could figure it out. The "Stonemasters" set a new standard of just what is possible in the vertical world. This style carries on even to this day.

Do you think Alex Honnold took along a little sling so he could "hang" while he climbed HD?

But style is a personal thing, as you pointed out, so what is wrong with having a strict style that you adhere to?

I believe climbing in good style adds a lot to the whole game we play. Good style is what will make you a better Rockclimber .....

Read up on just what Twight has to say about style and AlpineClimbing.

and to you Hikers out their who can't seem to comprehend "anything about style and why it matters" I say this. Would you get down and congratulate somebody for doing the PCT if they used a car to bypass those pesky desert sections???????????

I will end this rant about style with this, I know what poor style is and just where and what it leads to and that is not a place I go to.

Dingus Milktoast wrote: ...But sometimes the Old Guard uses Old Ethics to hold younger generations in check.

Not when it comes to a discussion of free climbing. The principle of free climbing is the driving force behind todays most impressive rock climbing. Chris Sharma did not call his 5.15 route over in France a done deal until he climbed it bottom to top no hangs or falls. Jeez, he probably didn't even fart.

Go to any modern sport climbing area where young strong climbers are doing things those of us who started in the 70's would have thought impossible. What is the primary goal when one of these new cutting edge climbers steps off the ground?

Each of my posts on this thread have been written as a direct answer to Mark's original question, not to spray about my style, as I often come up short of my ideals (neither am I trying to debate with other experienced climbers who know what I am talking about anyway.) If he finds the "rules" of free climbing too restrictive that is his business, I just tried to articulate what they are and the rewards they can bring. And besides, I don't see them as rules, but rather goals.

It's kind of like a trumpeter sitting down to perform Mahler's 5th Symphony, or Bach's 2nd Brandenburg Concerto. It's a pretty safe bet that you'll get from the beginning to the end one way or another, but is it really as much fun if you miss some of the high notes?

The way I define it is:

if I am trad climbing, ice climbing, alpine climbing (between 1pitch and 30+ pitches): if I fall, unless I lower to the start of the pitch and retry to fire it cleanly, I have not climbed the route. If I lower and lead it cleanly -no falls, then its valid.

I noticed that people (atleast the British Columbia young'ns are now taking this atrtitude in Patagonia.

I spent a lot of time at The Needles in Sequoia last summer. There were several groups of Canadians from Squamish and Canmore who came through. They were the best climbers I saw all summer. One party did Romantic Warrior and Don Juan Wall in the same day (The Warrior is 7 pitches with lots of 5.12, Don Juan is 4 pitches with two burly 5.11c flare.)

Oh yeah. They didn't take a rest day the next day either but rather did Ankles Away (.11d) and Pyromania (.13b) Poor fellas had to settle for a pinkpoint on the last one...

I sometimes wonder where some of that old style went. Last time I fell on a route and asked my belayer to the bottom of the line so that I could start it over, he (and the others there) looked at me like I was insane. They couldn't understand why I didn't just hang for a couple minutes and then keep going up.

knoback wrote:Alpinism is war, there is no "cheating". For the rest, nobody (except for total pricks) is going to blame you for grabbing a draw to keep from breaking your ankle, just tell it like it was. That is actually important, because if you lie about that sort of thing, you will eventually start to believe those lies yourself and get into trouble because of it.

We had an old saying in the military about war games:

Rule #1. If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
Rule #2. If you get caught cheating, lie.

I fell 27 times trying my first 5.11 lead. Damn it, I still say that I led it! But I always stipulate that I fell many times on that lead. Doesn't matter how you climbed it, as long as you fess up about your methods.

Andinistaloco wrote:I sometimes wonder where some of that old style went. Last time I fell on a route and asked my belayer to the bottom of the line so that I could start it over, he (and the others there) looked at me like I was insane. They couldn't understand why I didn't just hang for a couple minutes and then keep going up.

Well you are sort of insane, why would you wish to re-climb from the bottom?

Andinistaloco wrote:I sometimes wonder where some of that old style went. Last time I fell on a route and asked my belayer to the bottom of the line so that I could start it over, he (and the others there) looked at me like I was insane. They couldn't understand why I didn't just hang for a couple minutes and then keep going up.

Yeah I know. Have you noticed how the terms "hangdog" and "dogging" have just about vanished from the climbing vocabulary? These somewhat unflattering descriptives for failing to free climb have fallen into disuse.

ksolem wrote:

Andinistaloco wrote:I sometimes wonder where some of that old style went. Last time I fell on a route and asked my belayer to the bottom of the line so that I could start it over, he (and the others there) looked at me like I was insane. They couldn't understand why I didn't just hang for a couple minutes and then keep going up.

Yeah I know. Have you noticed how the terms "hangdog" and "dogging" have just about vanished from the climbing vocabulary? These somewhat unflattering descriptives for failing to free climb have fallen into disuse.

It's all climbing.

ksolem wrote:

Andinistaloco wrote:I sometimes wonder where some of that old style went. Last time I fell on a route and asked my belayer to the bottom of the line so that I could start it over, he (and the others there) looked at me like I was insane. They couldn't understand why I didn't just hang for a couple minutes and then keep going up.

Yeah I know. Have you noticed how the terms "hangdog" and "dogging" have just about vanished from the climbing vocabulary? These somewhat unflattering descriptives for failing to free climb have fallen into disuse.

Precisely... in fact I think the last time I used "hangdog" I got a blank look. When I explained it, I got more of an annoyed look. It's interesting how these things evolve... all the climbers I hit the cliffs with back in the mid-90's used to rip on "crash pads" like there was no tomorrow. One guy in particular would obnoxiously yell "hey, you going camping?" to folks seen lugging those pads in. Now at that same crag it's more common to see crash pads than not.