Fletch wrote:

The Chief wrote:Ya'll enjoy your Parks... that will be less folks that may even consider to venture into my non-Park areas where I guarantee ya, you will not see any humans nor any of their mechanical devices.

I'm not sure anyone completely disagrees with you, but c'mon Chiefie, no high-horses here... we're all sheep in your book, right? You and Fatdad can relive your glory days in 70's when nobody else cared about climbing and you conveniently found yourselves alone on perfect little spots in JT and Yosemite that you thought no one else knew about? C'mon man!

Dingus and Skoon are right. Its not perfect, but it's better than anything else we got. It's better than anything in the rest of the world and although the Parks may be frequented by a demographic you find unapealing, they are still Americans and they have every right to. In order to accomidate this right, asphalt and rest stops are a necessity. Had we not thought up the national park system, then those beautiful places today would be condo tracks and frozen yogurt bars. I'd rather have a few bubbas enjoying nature than condos and yogurt bars...

Word!

Fletch wrote:... Had we not thought up the national park system, then those beautiful places today would be condo tracks and frozen yogurt bars. I'd rather have a few bubbas enjoying nature than condos and yogurt bars...

I was at Niagara Falls last week, which they like to point out was the very first state park. On the U.S. side, they have paved all of the trails; the lawns and gardens are perfectly manicured, and the crowds an hour after opening were oppressing (but blissfully absent most of that first hour). As I walked towards the falls from above it, I looked over to the Canadian side, where there was a beautiful rainbow riding on the rising mist--and hotels, casinos and a Ferris wheel. Yes, a damned Ferris wheel.

The literature the park gave me cited Niagara Falls State Park as setting the standard for how future state parks would be developed. All I could think of was how magnificent it must have been two hundred years ago. Certainly, even today, it is worth a visit and every American should ride on the Maid of the Mist just to experience the power. But, thank God that there is a National Park Service, and thank God that they are working as best they can to accommodate the throngs who frequent our national parks. And, thank God most Americans are just as ignorant as some folks in this thread about where the beauty, solitude and challenge remains in some of those 58 U.S. national parks.

--mark d.

Yesterday I drove 15 minutes to a 7P 5.9+ish crack line that has not the scars nor human presence that your Serenity Crack has.

Waiting time & other human presence was nill and here is the best part, it was FREE!

butitsadryheat wrote:is that up in Pine Creek Chief?

Not telling....

My list of visited parks is similar to Hotoven's, and my top 3 (in no particular order) are Yosemite, Kings Canyon, and Sequoia. Outside of CA, I'll vote for Zion.

Although Yosemite can be crowded in places, it is very easy to avoid the crowds. I've done a 10 mile hike in the valley on a summer weekend with perfect weather and didn't see a single person. The only two backpacking trips where I didn't see anybody were both in Yosemite. So to say that Yosemite is crowded is very misleading.

I'll agree with Chief that some of the finest parts of the Sierra aren't in parks. Of these the Convict Creek Basin is my favorite. But to say that parks haven't preserved places is laughable. Although some remote parks may have increase the use of the area, if parks hadn't been created many areas would be far more impacted by various sorts of development. As a group of German backpackers told me in Kings Canyon, "This is just as beautiful as the Alps, but doesn't have all the hotels, shopping centers, and gas stations." Just imagine how nice it would have been if someone had the foresight to make a Lake Tahoe National Park.

Ah the good old days…

“In 1941, the U.S. Forest Service closed the canyon to the public use in order to relieve traffic congestion on the road and reserve limited camping space for families of men working at the mine and mill. The area had also been designated as an industrial site strategic to the war effort. Security guards were placed at a gate just below Pine Creek Mill and all passing through to work had to have identification papers. The U.S. military allowed only authorized photographs of the site to be published and those showing too much background scenery were rejected.”

From Mine in the Sky by Joseph M Kurtak

http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Sky-Joseph-M ... 1888125349

Zion Canyon gets crowded, but head out to some of the more obscure peaks -- even in sight of Zion Canyon -- and you will see no one.

Clydascope wrote:Ah the good old days…

“In 1941, the U.S. Forest Service closed the canyon to the public use in order to relieve traffic congestion on the road and reserve limited camping space for families of men working at the mine and mill. The area had also been designated as an industrial site strategic to the war effort. Security guards were placed at a gate just below Pine Creek Mill and all passing through to work had to have identification papers. The U.S. military allowed only authorized photographs of the site to be published and those showing too much background scenery were rejected.”

From Mine in the Sky by Joseph M Kurtak

http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Sky-Joseph-M ... 1888125349

Cool! I snapped a picture of Kurtak's log entry on Crater Mtn Last year, must be the same guy?

You can get solitude in the North Cascades and it makes the Sierra look like dusty old mountains. Here in BC you spend an hour on a logging road and your are lucky to run in to another party the whole day.

Mark you used the Canadian/American border at Niagara Falls as a comparison for what? the amount of rednecks they can fit near a water feature? The Canadian parks offer solitude almost impossible to find the US parks I have visited. You might as well be complaining about a Denny's you visited on your trip to Canada.

Some world national parks
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/20 ... onal-parks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_park -- some great links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks -- (by country)

Gary Schenk wrote:Is them bolts next to that crack?

No Gary... we don't bolt cracks like ya'll do there at the NPS run Christmas Tree Pass LMRA.

Look closely and you will see that particular bolt is next to an arete (on the right is a 40 foot drop off) on a blank 5.9 slab face and the runouts are 40 feet between two bolts and the final anchor on this particular pitch.

Here is a list of all the US national parks. I thought I'd been to many NP's but after seeing this list I have a long way to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Parks_of_the_United_States

I'd like to plug our midwest parks. If you want to get away in a National Park, jump a boat to Isle Royal.