My question was not directed towards chopping, Dingus.

Rather, would Brutus ever place a bolt on any FA, next to any aspect of rock that could take Pro?

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Yes he would I gave you a very specific example. Steck Salathe. Would he do a new route that way? Probably not.

DMT

That was a REBOLT GIG and not on an FA.

Different game.

I must disagree with you on the bolting issue. He and I had several discussions on this exact issue. We even discussed this exact same gig as we were simul drilling the first anchors to "What a Gift" at 12.5K as a T-Storm was rolling in..."NEVER I tell ya!"

I know he wouldn't. He and I discussed this on our FA on the Spire as I posted.

"Aint done it before and I aint gonna start now!"...Were his exact words that afternoon in Granite Park.



Could be why he liked hanging with me. I always sought the topics that many avoided with him.

ksolem wrote:

Dingus Milktoast wrote:I quite comfortable with established rap routes on popular alpine trade routes.

That is all.

DMT

Especially when the anchors are nuts or pins which can be moved. The subject of bolted anchors on U and V notch has been debated before, the obvious problem being that the amount of ice/snow there varies seasonally so the useful location of fixed anchors would change.

I agree with DMT here.

Kris, I contend there is a way to deal with that issue in the couloirs, but unfortunately it would involve quite a bit more metal and hand drilling in wilderness.

Chief, if you want to have a debate, that's fine, but don't falsely accuse me of leaving debris and trash in the mountains, when the opposite is true. You have no clue about what I do and don't do in the course of my work. And don't paint me as an "overbolter" because I helped create one route that you disagree with. I have personally placed about a dozen bolts in my life. I'm just not that into those kinds of projects. These accusations are just more examples of you spraying about which you know very little.

I am a big fan of "Chips." I am very excited about Tai's work in the canyon. About ORG and Pratt's crack areas, you say:

The Chief wrote:The Gorge and the certain Pine Creek areas that you speak of, are long time local well established "SPORT CLIMBING" areas.

ORG was a climbing crag before sport climbing existed. It's development against the existing ethic of the crag created a world class climbing destination. Pratt's Crack is arguably the most classic and famous old school rock route in the Eastern Sierra. Sorry, but this is not exactly a "sport climbing area." Again, if the ethic of the crag were followed then most of these "new wave" climbs would not exist.

Guyzo wrote:So most of this whole debate has centered on "one root"......and nobody will ID it. (strange)

G, it is called "No Country For Old Men," ironic, eh!

I helped equip two pitches of this route, in that I belayed the bolter and placed maybe one or two of them myself. But I didn't do the FA. I don't care if you think it is overbolted and you want to chop them. I just suggest you first start a conversation outside of Summit Post about it and talk to SP Parker, the author and creator of the route.

howiemtnguide wrote:ORG was a climbing crag before sport climbing existed. It's development against the existing ethic of the crag created a world class climbing destination. Pratt's Crack is arguably the most classic and famous old school rock route in the Eastern Sierra. Sorry, but this is not exactly a "sport climbing area." Again, if the ethic of the crag were followed then most of these "new wave" climbs would not exist.

Before Sport Climbing existed? 1978???

Ahh, maybe you you should go tell that to Bob H regarding the ORG. He placed the first bolt on the first route in what many swore off as choss pile. Regards to Pratts Crack, there were only four routes in that entire gully till Alan & Dale showed up in the late 70's and then began hand drilling ON LEAD in the early 80's..

When you assisted SP, did you make known your thoughts of possibly leaving the 3rd P clean?

The Chief wrote:Ahh, maybe you you should go tell that to Bob H regarding the ORG. He placed the first bolt on the first route in what many swore off as choss pile. Regards to Pratts Crack, there were only four routes in that entire gully till Alan & Dale showed up in the late 70's and then began hand drilling ON LEAD in the early 80's..
When you assisted SP, did you make known your thoughts of possibly leaving the 3rd P clean?

Bob is a good friend of mine. I will ask him about it. You seem to be contradicting yourself regarding ORG and Pratt's Crack areas.

When I assisted SP, we discussed it and he wanted to make it more "enjoyable" by adding the bolts. He's climbed at the Portal for quite a long time, so he knows the local situation. I didn't have an ethical problem with it and I generally agree that bolted cracks are sometimes enjoyable. I do not feel that the bolts there are unethical, but I can see why they create controversy. As I have told you, many have expressed thanks for the route. Never heard a negative comment about the bolts on that pitch until now. I am generally pretty thankful for other folks who have used bolts to make a climb more accessible or enjoyable. I sometimes like sport climbing on my days off. Even bolted cracks. I am going to Indian Creek next week where I look forward to climbing some unbolted cracks that may require even less boldness than a sport climb in the Gorge.

By all means Chief, start a discussion and make your case. I appreciate your stance. Just make sure your have your argument straight and talk to the right people so you don't turn it into a junk show.

Guyzo wrote:The need for this is something for a committee of locals to determine.

Serious thanks for the bolt maintenance in Red Rock and going about it in a good way. Now follow your own example.

The Chief wrote:Before Sport Climbing existed? 1978???

In the US. Arguably around the same time- 1983, Watts, Smith Rock.

Interesting watching you two fellas go at it. Guiding must be slow on the east side these days?

Seriously though, I think we should be able to distinguish between a venue like the ORG, where for the most part trad climbing sucks and is not a good option, and a venue like The Portal. Howie, I have to say that your argument that just because a few folks climbed in the gorge pre-sport days means a "tradition" was violated is weak. Or let's say a long stretch.

OK, let's have it: round six...

ksolem wrote:Interesting watching you two fellas go at it. Guiding must be slow on the east side these days?

Seriously though, I think we should be able to distinguish between a venue like the ORG, where for the most part trad climbing sucks and is not a good option, and a venue like The Portal. Howie, I have to say that your argument that just because a few folks climbed in the gorge pre-sport days means a "tradition" was violated is weak. Or let's say a long stretch.

OK, let's have it: round six...

Kris,
Guiding is slow indeed! I'm enjoying this though since I am stuck in the office today. OK, ORG might not be a great example. But the bolting of cracks there did see some heated controversy. Overall the local community kind of brushed it off and accepted the bolted cracks. Pine Creek Canyon is more comparable to the Portal in terms of rock type and history. I think it presents a more interesting comparison. Definitely history and tradition. Definitely bolted cracks there that came later. Don't know if there was much controversy about it at the time. Just up canyon there is a climb called Silverback that is a bolted crack. I have not heard much negative about it from local climbers. In Rock Creek, also similar, there are a number of protectable cracks that are bolted into sport climbs. Some would be totally reasonable, and very high quality, trad climbs, but I have never heard any complaining about the bolts.

Do any of you suppose that with certain crags or climbs, maybe more accessible or less aesthetic, people more easily accept such bolting? I would not see any bolted cracks put up on the East side of Whitney or the South Face of Charlotte Dome as examples as going down without major controversy (and likely bolt war). Do you think the standard is different for the rock climbs of the Alabama hills or the Portal? I don't have an answer, just asking.

So now you can start Round 6! Discuss...

Well, my answer is that when I climb up around Bishop I have the attitude of a visitor. I'm certainly not a local, and I'm not going to get too bent about what goes on there. I love climbing in the Gorge.

I do think it is a shame for people to be bolting cracks which as you say would be good trad lines. That is something I would never do myself, ever, and I have little admiration for someone who does. It doesn't matter how good a climber they might be, it's just bad form in my view.

I've only climbed on that wall left of Pratt's once - I found it quite silly, so whatever. Some of the routes around right and up are pretty proud though.

I don't see this bolting of good cracks going on at the areas where I am not a visitor - and I certainly hope it stays that way. I love trad climbing.

Howie,

The semantics of the origins of "Sport Climbing" in the U.S. can be argued. Just cuz rap bolting started at Smith in the mid 80's, doesn't necessarily mean that is when "Sport" commenced. As Kris and Guy will agree with, lines started appearing in JT and Suicide in the late60's and early 70's that required clipping bolts as Pro. I remember climbing my first bolted routes in JT and Suicide in '73. Black Tide, Cryptic, WOTWS, Mickey Mantle & Serpentine being my very first real 5.7/5.8/5.9 leads.


Many a route in the Meadows and throughout the Eastside, that required draws, appeared in the mid 70's.

Again, that is another argument that we have had here on SP.

The true definition of a Sport Route.

Pine Creek saw it's first bolts in series as Pro, in Jan of '77 after DR placed his three bolts on the FA return on Smokesatck in '70, on Elderberry Buttress, by Alan and crew. Hell, even DR clipped them and gave his approval. At the time that protocol began, there were a total of NINE established routes in the entire area. NINE! By the end of 1984, there were three times more "bolted" routes than Trad routes in the entire PC area. Thus, your perspective on the history of PC is a tad bit off. Oh yeah, this "bolting" began before your definition of Sport Climbing began at Smith. No protectable cracks/flakes were ever bolted then either. All were a mixed bag and required bold abilities to climb on. Allan and crew did have some ethics as far as where they placed the bolts.

howiemtnguide wrote:Do any of you suppose that with certain crags or climbs, maybe more accessible or less aesthetic, people more easily accept such bolting? I would not see any bolted cracks put up on the East side of Whitney or the South Face of Charlotte Dome as examples as going down without major controversy (and likely bolt war). Do you think the standard is different for the rock climbs of the Alabama hills or the Portal? I don't have an answer, just asking.

So now you can start Round 6! Discuss...

You mean like the new route that just appeared on Keeler Needle that has over 218 bolts on it. It's located in between Batso's and the Steele/Brown and Lowe lines and no it's not Strassmen's last work that is just to the left of the Harding line.

That's right folks!!

Doug up at the store informed me of this atrocity just two weeks ago. No one as of yet has taken credit for it. But I have my suspicions of a certain crew that has been very active in that area. Just waiting to read the post on their site.

ksolem wrote:I've only climbed on that wall left of Pratt's once - I found it quite silly, so whatever. Some of the routes around right and up are pretty proud though.

YUP.... been up there pretty regularly lately myself and got one in the works Kris. Right smack in between Tai's projects. Done it solo so far. Hoping that Derek will join me like old times to finish this potential 4 pitch .10 plus mixed line. First P is going at .10b/c ish with 9 bolts and gear up to 2.5 inches...

My new line goes smack dab up the middle of the blankish looking face through the roof and Tai's new gig to the right into the left facing corners. Great stuff!

howiemtnguide wrote:Kris, I contend there is a way to deal with that issue in the couloirs, but unfortunately it would involve quite a bit more metal and hand drilling in wilderness.

What has stopped ya and what is unfortunate about it?

I have lots of hand drilled Anchor stuff in the wilderness. It's easy. Just entails time and some work.

Just may take this one on myself next year. Hell, I will even ask the Talsky's to donate the hardware as they have on many of the other local Rebolt projects in the past six years.

Finally Howie, your argument regarding the positive feedback that you are receiving regarding the bolted flake deal on the Portal Butt, is totally mooted by Guyzo's valid and totally true post....

"When I talk to Sport climbers about "bolts and ethics" I am shocked at the lack of knowledge about the past and how folks have climbed in the past."

Yeah, I don't think it is commonly accepted that sport climbing started when bolts were first used. It was a different mentality and approach that distinguished it from traditional rock climbing.

It would be a big stretch to call the routes on Elderberry Buttress or the Smokestack (not in PC, btw), "sport climbing." Bold, ground-up routes, for sure. Why would anyone have placed a bolt next to a protectable crack on lead in those days? It would have been completely inefficient. The idea that these are "sport climbs" is laughable. Lycra would have never held up to the desert brush and mountain mahogany...

I say go for it on the U-notch. I'd be happy to share some ideas with you on it and even go up and help if I have time. Let me know if MMS hooks you up.

And you and Guyzo shouldn't write off all of the next generation. It makes you sound old and crusty. Some of these folks want to be a part of history, they just don't know it yet. Someone curmudgeon might have said the same about you when you were climbing your first leads on bolts in J-Tree.

howiemtnguide wrote:Why would anyone have placed a bolt next to a protectable crack on lead in those days? It would have been completely inefficient.

The author of the route we speak of on the "Ears" which are located no more than 1/2 mile from the entrance of PCC on the same ridgeline/crest as the Pratts Crack area (Wheeler), now sings a way different tune these days.

Seems he has broken ranks with his decades of staunch Clean Climbing Ethics and now TD's routes and PD's bolts next to perfectly good pro placements!


Hmm! Sounds like someone who really never believed what they preached.

Piss poor example in my book.

Just say'n.

Respect, Chief. Good to keep people accountable for their words.

Interesting though. Is it that he never believed what he preached, or did he just change his tune? Always makes for a great human interest story when a staunch believer reconsiders. The Sierra has that effect on people. He was just in town last week. I hope to get a chance to ask him more about that at the Eastern Sierra "Guide's Ball" on Nov. 21st. Will you be attending?

FYI- I am pretty sure some of the added bolts on the Smokestack route were placed by SP Parker 4 or 5 years back. Also- fact check -the base of the Rabbit Ears is approximately 2.59 miles from the mouth of Pine Creek Canyon by my measurements. That Wheeler Crest sure is big!

howiemtnguide wrote:Respect, Chief. Good to keep people accountable for their words.

Interesting though. It is that he never believed what he preached, or did he just change his tune? Always makes for a great human interest story when a staunch believer reconsiders. The Sierra has that effect on people. He was just in town last week. I hope to get a chance to ask him more about that at the Eastern Sierra "Guide's Ball" on Nov. 21st. Will you be attending?

FYI- I am pretty sure some of the added bolts on the Smokestack route were placed by SP Parker 4 or 5 years back. Also- fact check -the base of the Rabbit Ears is approximately 2.59 miles from the mouth of Pine Creek Canyon by my measurements. That Wheeler Crest sure is big!

Nope... the added bolt on P4 was originally DR's when he and Galen returned to finish the route the following year. I have had some discussion with DR regarding the location of the bolt. Seems if he would have moved left about 15-20', he would have not had to drill, good pro to be found. It would have also been more in line with the direction that they had to take any way.


As for the "added" two bolts above the original one on the next P, I was under the impression that MS had put those there with DR's approval some 10 years ago when he replaced the original 1/4er on P4.

I never have clipped any of those two other bolts on that route. Went the way that looked more direct for the 5th pitch.

As far as respect... I lose it when folks drop the good premise and fall from grace and then justify it. Standing firm one's principals, regardless of the current mindset, is called integrity.

Once we surrender our principals/integrity to conform with the times, we lose our self identity.