ChugachMan wrote: Also, go climb MSMR - the first 4 ascents agree that it's well protected, but not over protected - to the point I doubt anyone would have objected had the power drill not come out. Let it rest - they screwed up, know it, and learned from it. The end result? An awesome route that would have gone up anyhow (just taken a few more trips to finish), even if hand-drilling had been used for all of it instead of half of it.

By whom... other PD Wilderness bolters.

Far toooooooooooooooooo many lead bolts on that route in an area that had previously had at the most, only 5 (hand drilled btw) for 20 pitches.

The days of boldness in the Wilderness have been replaced by the PD.

Have PD will put up routes.

Hell, even Harding and Strassman had some respect when it came to bolting in the Wilderness.

Seems the new generation needs to bolt the shit out of a clean wilderness virgin walls in order to make their mark.

Unfortunately, there aren't too many folks that make a stand anymore...shame.

BTW, I did do the route in early Sept with a local old fart partner C-C in 8.5 hours. Found that had ya'll only placed 1/3 the amount of the bolts, it would have certainly made this a real class act Backcountry route. We only clipped every other bolt or so on P's 3 & 4. With that, we rated it .10b. Had we clipped each bolt, would have been hard pressed to call it .10a. with the current protection of the bolts. Reminded my partner of the first and third P's of Night Shift.

He also commented that had ya'll gone and done some of the older stuff in the Portal, ya'll might have gotten a better example to go by. El Diablo, Cara Del Oro and El Gaucho on El Gaucho Wall immediately came to both our minds. All hand drilled on lead btw. They require talent and balls to get on and complete. All are Class Act Bold routes.

His final comment about it all went something like this....

"Wish them young whipper snappers had some respect for the continuity of the local route establishment ethics. But I guess most just call it progress. Hope to God they don't return to litter this beautiful face with more bolts, grid bolt the shit outta of it and then call em routes. Oh well."

I have to date FA'd 16 routes in the Wilderness. Only two have been advertised. Have yet to place a lead bolt on any... none. All bolts that were hand drilled only, were for Rappel Anchors only.

I'm going fishing. Tired of all this New Wave justified PD bolting ego gotta splatter the wall with bolts and then spray my FA's all over the internet horseshit.

Chief, we've talked, you know I've never placed a single bolt - rap anchor or otherwise (and personally I still don't get why bolted rap anchors supposedly have a place in the alpine... or bolted "alpine" or wilderness routes in general - regardless of whether they're common, obscure or guided routes (i.e. the notches)) - and won't. So drop the "ya'll" stuff. It's NOT my route. However, you're the only person I know who's climbed it, and not enjoyed it. All I can say if you're that concerned, try working with the guys in a more positive manner.

<your routes> if you think they're worth climbing, than might as well post them so others can climb them. Especially if you've permanently scarred the rock with ANY bolts - make their placement serve a purpose.

Honestly, I try to take a neutral stand in most of this stuff, however I have to say that sometimes you need to learn to pick your battles. Constantly bashing everyone doesn't help when you actually do have a good and valid point (which you often do), but rather detracts from it. Immediately suspecting, and publicly accusing a group without facts doesn't help either. Happy fishin', and happy climbing. I'll post my own PH TR from a recent trip sometime in the next couple days, and then I'm checking out for the next 3 months. Take Care.

I will bash anyone's actions/behavior that affect the ongoing efforts to afford the open Access to the rest of the community.

In the past three years I have had to really beg and plead to not have some of the local crags restricted. All on account of a select few who disregarded the rules and regs of the landowner. It is Access to areas that we locals love, respect and utilize on a regular basis. Those that disregarded the temp Peregrine Closures were all outta towner's that were just passing through and could care less of the consequences for their selfish actions.

Disrespecting and willingly going against the laws, regulations and rules in place in order to climb, put up routes, regardless of reason or rhyme, which in turn affect the "Battles" that some have chosen to take on so as to afford all the ability and freedom to Access a closed area, is wrong and very selfish.

As I have posted, before going into any area, do your homework and find out what actions/potential restrictions are ongoing before you start climbing, FAing, bolting in the Area/Wilderness and then posting your line/s on the internet. Your actions may impact and undermine the hard work that some have chosen to under take. Regardless of the opinions against or for the entity that is designated as the landowner and which the efforts are being worked with to resolve any Access issue/s.

That should be a critical part of anyone's FA plans prior to putting up any routes in a well known delicate/observed Wilderness area.

Justifying the quality of a route won't cut it as far as this landowner which this particular battle is being fought against, is concerned.

This particular landowner has a hard on for violators of the laws which are and have been in place.

It was a very delicate situation that has now become a very stone walled one due to the observed misbehavior's of a chosen few.

Climbing and Bolting in this designated Sierra Big Horn Critical Habitat Area (of which both North & South forks of Tuttle Creek are a part of... Unit 10 Mt. Langley Area as of May 2008) is a very touchy subject. That's right, bet most here didn't know that. All can be restricted with a touch of pen. Just as it was in the Williamson Rock area for the MYLF.

That is where some of us stand in our battles.

But then who really gives a shit... right?

Fact is, I am just about to say screw this all. Let the cards fall where they may. If the landowner decides to restrict Access to certain areas due to the misdeeds of some, so be it. Maybe then folks will start to think before they act.

The Chief wrote:

ChugachMan wrote: Also, go climb MSMR - the first 4 ascents agree that it's well protected, but not over protected - to the point I doubt anyone would have objected had the power drill not come out. Let it rest - they screwed up, know it, and learned from it. The end result? An awesome route that would have gone up anyhow (just taken a few more trips to finish), even if hand-drilling had been used for all of it instead of half of it.

By whom... other PD Wilderness bolters.

Far toooooooooooooooooo many lead bolts on that route in an area that had previously had at the most, only 5 (hand drilled btw) for 20 pitches.

The days of boldness in the Wilderness have been replaced by the PD.

Have PD will put up routes.

Hell, even Harding and Strassman had some respect when it came to bolting in the Wilderness.

Seems the new generation needs to bolt the shit out of a clean wilderness virgin walls in order to make their mark.

Unfortunately, there aren't too many folks that make a stand anymore...shame.

BTW, I did do the route in early Sept with a local old fart partner C-C in 8.5 hours. Found that had ya'll only placed 1/3 the amount of the bolts, it would have certainly made this a real class act Backcountry route. We only clipped every other bolt or so on P's 3 & 4. With that, we rated it .10b. Had we clipped each bolt, would have been hard pressed to call it .10a. with the current protection of the bolts. Reminded my partner of the first and third P's of Night Shift.

He also commented that had ya'll gone and done some of the older stuff in the Portal, ya'll might have gotten a better example to go by. El Diablo, Cara Del Oro and El Gaucho on El Gaucho Wall immediately came to both our minds. All hand drilled on lead btw. They require talent and balls to get on and complete. All are Class Act Bold routes.

His final comment about it all went something like this....

"Wish them young whipper snappers had some respect for the continuity of the local route establishment ethics. But I guess most just call it progress. Hope to God they don't return to litter this beautiful face with more bolts, grid bolt the shit outta of it and then call em routes. Oh well."

I have to date FA'd 16 routes in the Wilderness. Only two have been advertised. Have yet to place a lead bolt on any... none. All bolts that were hand drilled only, were for Rappel Anchors only.

I'm going fishing. Tired of all this New Wave justified PD bolting ego gotta splatter the wall with bolts and then spray my FA's all over the internet horseshit.

Who is your secret friend Chief? Since your so fast to quote him, I am sure he would not mind if you dropped his name. BTW you must be crankin' hard to downgrade a 10c/d to 10a and skip the bolts. Or was that your impression when you followed on a 20lb top rope? What pitches did you really get? Very interesting your disclosing all this now.

BTW you never miss a chance to spray about your Granite Park route. Can't even count how many times I have seen it pop up like a commercial amidst all your endless rambling.

dhensel wrote:

Guyzo wrote:I really think it is a eye-sore bolt, one that will no doubt draw some folks dangerously off-route when climbing "Surprise" 5.8, the mega classic.

It may be an eye-sore, but I think you're exaggerating a little there Guy. It is so, so, SO, easy up there that I doubt anybody will be drawn "dangerously" off route. I think the real issue is that because it's so easy, most people will now mindlessly go to it and clip it. In fact, the bolt is probably very close to being on Surprise despite the fact that it's actually on Clam Chowder.

Unfortunate? Yes.

When I asked Clark what he knew about a "new" bolt on Surprise he told me it was actually on Clam Chowder. My reaction was, "So? That's just as bad since there weren't any bolts on the first pitch of Clam Chowder either." Then I got the background of what had happened.

As mentioned in the ST thread, the Surprise FA party did have protection at approximately the same place. A tied off knife blade (one of a few). In some respects the nature of the pitch is now once again closer to what the FA party experienced. I'm not trying to convince people this makes it right/wrong, just pointing out there are things to consider before chopping.

I really wish it had been left alone but it wasn't. I think it's generally accepted that the FA party can retro their own routes, and that is what happened. The fact that the bolt can (and probably will be) used by Surprise is something to be weighed but is only one more factor.

For those who were up in arms enough to chop first and ask later I hope there is a lesson; Things aren't always cut and dried, or black and white. Take the time to get the facts straight first, then act if appropriate.

All that said, add a bolt to a route at Suicide without FA consent and it will likely suffer an abrupt fate.

(Edit: Kris - picture by Powell)

dhensel.... yes maybe a bit over the top about the danger factor, but if somebody unfamiliar heads for it, and falls.... well it's about 90 feet down.

I really can not believe they added to it.... really a piece of shit, garbage

This is some good reading.....

Some things never change.

climb on...

travelin_light wrote:
Who is your secret friend Chief? Since your so fast to quote him, I am sure he would not mind if you dropped his name. BTW you must be crankin' hard to downgrade a 10c/d to 10a and skip the bolts. Or was that your impression when you followed on a 20lb top rope? What pitches did you really get? Very interesting your disclosing all this now.

BTW you never miss a chance to spray about your Granite Park route. Can't even count how many times I have seen it pop up like a commercial amidst all your endless rambling.

- John. And yes he does mind as he doesn't enjoy playing rating games over mediocre sport lines in the pristine Wilderness. He went along to see what all this ego shet was all about. As posted, he wasn't at all impressed.

- MSMR is way over bolted, period. There wasn't one move on your line that was anything harder than one will find on "Roseanne" "Magical Mystery Tour" or "HRB". Like I posted, go to the Portal and get on the Gaucho Wall and learn what some real.10b/c and .11a's really are. Better, yet, take a short drive to Suicide and get on the "Sunshine Face" Classics or some of Hensel's Master Pieces. MSMR definitely exemplifies the modern "Bolt it Up" philosophy. Part of rating a route is taking into consideration the sustained difficulty and runout between Pro. One or two .10a friction moves with 8-10' between bolts isn't anything to sweat about.

- Look in the recent AAJ under the CA section and read about it. It's now a route that Honors Brutus of Wyde. I think that is a valid "commercial" to spray about. But neither of you would even come close to even understand what that entails. Besides, have any you hardcore's hiked the 12 miles in and done "our" route? You might just learn a thing or two about putting up Wilderness routes.


Did any of know that area of SFLPP is a designated "Critical Habitat Area" for the Sierra Bighorn as of May of 2008, when ya'll went back there put up MSMR with a PD? We already know that you claim you knew nothing about the Wilderness Designation...right!


The bottom line, your actions on MSMR are indeed having some very long standing affects on ACCESS issues that were in the works. The "Man" observes what is happening on his land that he has been charged with care taking. Whether you like or not. The ongoing battle to bring more freedom of ACCESS to the masses has been suspended due to the actions of a few who neglected to do the proper research prior to FAing their route in the Wilderness.

Keep up the good self proclaimed work boys...

The Chief wrote:

travelin_light wrote:
Who is your secret friend Chief? Since your so fast to quote him, I am sure he would not mind if you dropped his name. BTW you must be crankin' hard to downgrade a 10c/d to 10a and skip the bolts. Or was that your impression when you followed on a 20lb top rope? What pitches did you really get? Very interesting your disclosing all this now.

BTW you never miss a chance to spray about your Granite Park route. Can't even count how many times I have seen it pop up like a commercial amidst all your endless rambling.

- John. And yes he does mind as he doesn't enjoy playing rating games over mediocre sport lines in the pristine Wilderness. He went along to see what all this ego shet was all about. As posted, he wasn't at all impressed.

- MSMR is way over bolted, period. There wasn't one move on your line that was anything harder than one will find on "Roseanne" "Magical Mystery Tour" or "HRB". Like I posted, go to the Portal and get on the Gaucho Wall and learn what some real.10b/c and .11a's really are. Better, yet, take a short drive to Suicide and get on the "Sunshine Face" Classics or some of Hensel's Master Pieces. MSMR definitely exemplifies the modern "Bolt it Up" philosophy. Part of rating a route is taking into consideration the sustained difficulty and runout between Pro. One or two .10a friction moves with 8-10' between bolts isn't anything to sweat about.

- Look in the recent AAJ under the CA section and read about it. It's now a route that Honors Brutus of Wyde. I think that is a valid "commercial" to spray about. But neither of you would even come close to even understand what that entails. Besides, have any you hardcore's hiked the 12 miles in and done "our" route? You might just learn a thing or two about putting up Wilderness routes.


Did any of know that area of SFLPP is a designated "Critical Habitat Area" for the Sierra Bighorn as of May of 2008, when ya'll went back there put up MSMR with a PD? We already know that you claim you knew nothing about the Wilderness Designation...right!


The bottom line, your actions on MSMR are indeed having some very long standing affects on ACCESS issues that were in the works. The "Man" observes what is happening on his land that he has been charged with care taking. Whether you like or not. The ongoing battle to bring more freedom of ACCESS to the masses has been suspended due to the actions of a few who neglected to do the proper research prior to FAing their route in the Wilderness.

Keep up the good self proclaimed work boys...

I find it humorous you can not answer any of the questions. And downright hilarious that your friend does not want his name associated with you and all the shit you have managed to make up. Especially the rating game you clearly started yourself.

This might be the best thing I have read in a long time:

"Part of rating a route is taking into consideration the sustained difficulty and runout between Pro."

Are you really saying that a runout should cause a route be graded harder? I think so. Snake Dike is pretty runout, should that be 5.10?

Sounds like your done arguing about bolts and want to start arguing about route grading now. Go start another thread so you can tell all of us how to rate routes.

travelin_light wrote:This might be the best thing I have read in a long time:

"Part of rating a route is taking into consideration the sustained difficulty and runout between Pro."

Are you really saying that a runout should cause a route be graded harder? I think so. Snake Dike is pretty runout, should that be 5.10?

Sounds like your done arguing about bolts and want to start arguing about route grading now. Go start another thread so you can tell all of us how to rate routes.

RTFP!

Both entities should be considered.

Snake Dike is properly rated for it's time. Many modern day climbers say that if it were put up today, it would consist of many more bolts and rated at 5.9.

Needle & Spoon and Ciebola would be more appropriate routes to compare your route to as they are in the same rating category. Amazingly, they have far less than 1/2 the amount of bolts per "sustained" crux pitch than yours does and requires one to think about what they are doing when climbing. Not looking for the next bolt to clip.

Amazes me how ya'll are experts now on the rating gig. How long have you been at this climbing game... 4 maybe five years? Just cuz ya got a Power Drill, don't mean ya know how to put up an aesthetic route worth climbing.

As Vern told me a several of years ago regarding his lack of bolts on many of his back country Classic lines...

"I didn't have time to drill. I was too busy trying to climb the damn thing. Not looking for locations to drill a hole in the rock."

Something you boys should take into consideration when putting up your next back country bolted Sport Route. Leave the PD in the car.

So what pitches did you get on this easy 5.10 sport route? Or did you follow most of it? Try not to change the subject.

Oh ya, get it clean?

travelin_light wrote:So what pitches did you get on this easy 5.10 sport route? Or did you follow most of it? Try not to change the subject.

2 & 4. We bailed after 4.

We both noticed that ya'll should have gone left & directly up after 4 and would not have impeded on someone elses long existing route. FA Cardinal Sin BTW, especially on a face that immense and vast. Would have even made it really interesting if ya'll had done that. But the lack of proper research and experience only showed even more when ya'll went the direction that ya did.

Maybe ya'll might get it right next time...

So which unnecessary bolt did you need to hang on for P4?

Frankly, I could give a rats ass where you think P5 should go. Besides you backed off anyway. If your going to say you backed off because you did not like how the route was bolted - you probably needed to go home early anyway.

The Chief wrote:BTW, I did do the route in early Sept with a local old fart partner C-C in 8.5 hours.

The Chief wrote:We bailed after 4

So much for integrity

Not suprising these days Used to be that when a climber said they "did" a route. it meant they climbed the WHOLE route, with no falls, or hangs. And in order to be able to brag about their ctc speed, they needed to actually complete the route.

travelin_light wrote:So which unnecessary bolt did you need to hang on for P4?

Frankly, I could give a rats ass where you think P5 should go. Besides you backed off anyway. If your going to say you backed off because you did not like how the route was bolted - you probably needed to go home early anyway.

Hang... funny.

P5 isn't your line. You all impeded onto and retrobolted someones elses existing route that was originally done clean.

Therefore, "your" route really ends at the top of 4.

Our intentions were not to climb any other line but yours.

BTW, who's fixed pin is that just above the stance for 2?

Rob wrote:

The Chief wrote:BTW, I did do the route in early Sept with a local old fart partner C-C in 8.5 hours.

The Chief wrote:We bailed after 4

So much for integrity

Not suprising these days Used to be that when a climber said they "did" a route. it meant they climbed the WHOLE route, with no falls, or hangs. And in order to be able to brag about their ctc speed, they needed to actually complete the route.

The first 4 P's is their original "Whole" route.

Rapping off after doing the first 4 P's was the sole intent.

Also, use to be that climbers would never impede onto someone elses well documented line when establishing an FA and then retro bolt it without permission.


This line WOULD HAVE been cool had ya'll not PD'd it (it's in a well established Wilderness Area), bolted it far more sparingly, not climbed onto and then retrobolted someone elses well established "Clean" line. Talk about Integrity.

I have NOTHING against any of the individuals... nada.

It is the manner and direction that this line was put up and took that is a prime example of total improper FA Etiquette.

But then, who cares these days about true integrity, respect for the landowner's, designated endangered wildlife sanctuaries, other established lines and local ethics....right?

PS: Had this line been put up in the manner in which it was in Eldo or the Flat Irons, it would have been chopped within a week....guaranteed.

Maybe the irony of it all holds true as to the honor/name in which this line was given to. Considering Guyzo's comments and opinion regarding the supposed atrocities done in Rock Creek by the individual the honor was given to.

Power Drill.... so rick that is your bottom line. All this BS crying boils down to the use of that....

I find it really freaking amazing

If Warren was alive today, I wonder just what it would be?

Bosch or Hilti ?

gk