chief you are wrong on a couple of points.

The whole route is 6 pitches. P5 and P6 are new. P5 is also probably the technical crux. The anchor at the end of P5 is an anchor on LOLR. LOLR diagonals left, MSMR diagonals right, and neither of them share pitches.

Thats MY pin at the top of P4 - sorry.

I am humbled that you went back there to JUST climb MSMR, but I regret to inform you that our route simply shares a belay stance and nothing more as it crosses LOLR - as mentioned by glahhg. So NO you did not complete the route. Like you even said, there is a lot more climbing to go before the you enter the Sea of Knobs. BTW as the topo even suggests, MSMR's last lead bolt is a good 75' from LOLR. You would not know that, however, without climbing past P4 were you stopped - for some "reason" you cannot adequately convey.

If you have a problem with a route only sharing a belay I do not know what to tell you - that is your problem.

Our route will speak for itself, as it already has with several folks, including some longtime Sierra climbers. I think it is clear you have your problems with how the route was put up and that is fine. I am not saying you cannot have an opinion. Your point has been acknowledged.

Rob wrote:Used to be that when a climber said they "did" a route. it meant they climbed the WHOLE route, with no falls, or hangs.

I've noticed this too, and there are many variations on it. For instance, I was looking at mountain pages here on SP and there are lots of peaks where folks sign the "climber's log" thing only to say they didn't climb the mountain (like http://www.summitpost.org/object_discus ... 0137#30137 - 3/4 folks didn't go to the top and one didn't even get on the mountain!). It's an interesting trend.

Guyzo wrote:Power Drill.... so rick that is your bottom line. All this BS crying boils down to the use of that....

PDing in a designated Wilderness Endangered Species Critical Habitat Area....BIG ASS NO NO!

Just cuz ya don't agree with the speed limit, doesn't mean you can go 100 mph and expect no consequences for your actions.

I really don't care any more after all this shit. I have tossed in the towel regarding trying to get Williamson open year round. Unfortunately, that has become a smaller fish that may be replaced by a much bigger fish when the Inyo & Toiyabe NF Sup's in fact complete their EI's and then decide to Limit/Close access to the 12 SBHSCH Areas. If that happens, will then, lets see what impact the PD issue has within the climbing community as whole when they are told they can't climb in some of their favorite areas any longer all due to the past use of PD's.

Williamson Rock is prime example of this "CONTROLED" ACCESS by the Landowner. The MYLF may be the reason. But I can guarantee ya that it was not the cause.

End of story.

In this case, the SBS may be the reason. But, it wasn't the cause.

glahhg wrote:chief you are wrong on a couple of points.

The whole route is 6 pitches. P5 and P6 are new.

Yup... they were redirected/added after Alois asked ya'll to clean the bolts that ya'll PD'd on his LOLR.

MSMR:


One of the top 10 pitches in the High Sierra:




Too bad Chief skipped P5:


The amazing final pitch (5.4 X):


Crux of the route:

"One of the top ten Pitches in the High Sierra"..... says who?

Maybe ya'll need to get out and do some real High Sierra Routes.

Like I posted....

The Sheep may be the reason.

But not the cause.

Enjoy them pic's boys cuz ACCESS to that wall and your route may end up in the same boat as George Creek/Williamson Area....One month out of the year.

The proposed EI's due to certain peoples behavior's, will determine that.

If this ultimately happens, rest assured, I will make a point to let the entire world know the real reason why everyone's ACCEES to this pristine area, is now closed.

The above pic's reminds me of them city slicker snowmobiler's from Denver a couple years back that posted pictures of themselves driving around the protected wildlife area of Yellowstone NP. They no longer own them snowmachines and are all out $10K, each.


BTW... that aint even the High Sierra.


"In climbing, it is important not to destroy the concept of the impossible. To keep from destroying the idea of the impossible, it's important to create rules and for all to respect those rules. Today, the excess of technique in climbing is like having a deck of cards full of eight Aces. Thus, the impossible is then made possible, it's destroyed and then there is no longer any value in attempting to conquer the impossible. So the eternal problem is reduced and the problem is no longer overcome by winning.

When one places a bolt, the intelligence factor goes away. It no longer requires ability, just muscle. It becomes a gesture and is no longer an adventure. It can be beautiful in itself to those that placed it, but it will never be an adventure. It never can be nor will it ever be an adventure.

Adventure is why I always climbed. Take that adventure away with the proliferation of bolts, and there is no more climbing. This introduction of bolts to the mountains is one main reason why I no longer climb."
Walter Bonatti 5/89

The Chief wrote:
Adventure is why I always climbed. Take that adventure away with the proliferation of bolts, and there is no more climbing."[/i]

Walter Bonatti 5/89

I know why you climb, Chief. To prove to yourself that the route's going to suck.

glahhg wrote:I know why you climb, Chief. To prove to yourself that the route's going to suck.

No... just your route!]

And any other route in the Wilderness that was put up with a Power Drill and bolted every 6-10 feet.

The Chief wrote:

glahhg wrote:I know why you climb, Chief. To prove to yourself that the route's going to suck.

No... just your route!

Yep. Exactly my point. You climbed our route to prove to yourself that it would suck. I can't think of a more bitter and negative reason to go climbing.

And my point is that over bolting, or bolting of any kind, in the "Mountains", totally redefines the reality of what is climbing. Just as Bonatti , Messner and many other "Legends" of this game have told us time and time again.

As those Legends have told us, it is far easier to drill and place a bolt than it is to say no, leave the rock and the impossible to lay as it has for millions of years.

The intrusion of any bolt in the high mountains, is simply taking away the virginity and purity of nature. And imposing the artificial eight Aces that says look, I won!

It is all inclusive and a very deep component of the OP.

But I do not expect you nor many of the modern generation climber, to even begin to understand this ideal.

It is the journey and the manner in which that journey is accomplished, not the end, the summit, that is why I climb.

poorboy44 wrote:MSMR:

I have to admit that is one ultra sweet looking route and would love to get up it some day. Your topo shows that dike runs for about 3 pitches

The Chief wrote:And my point is that over bolting, or bolting of any kind, in the "Mountains", totally redefines the reality of what is climbing. Just as Bonatti , Messner and many other "Legends" of this game have told us time and time again.

As those Legends have told us, it is far easier to drill and place a bolt than it is to say no, leave the rock and the impossible to lay as it has for millions of years.

The intrusion of any bolt in the high mountains, is simply taking away the virginity and purity of nature. And imposing the artificial eight Aces that says look, I won!

What about your bolted rap route Granite Spire?! No bolts in the mountains huh? What you got about 10 bolts or so up there?

Does the ability to rap your route give it the ability to exist in a practical sense? Which is fine! Just like MSMR requires bolts to exist the very same practical sense? Remember Chief, nobody is arguing with you on the rules pertaining to the method of bolt placement - which are based on bureaucratic line drawing. Again your point has been made.

If your rap route is not pertinent to the existence of the route and a walk off IS viable - then wtf are they doing there? That rock has been there for millions of years and now you have altered it and "over bolted" in your definition. Which side of the story are you on?

travelin_light wrote:

The Chief wrote:And my point is that over bolting, or bolting of any kind, in the "Mountains", totally redefines the reality of what is climbing. Just as Bonatti , Messner and many other "Legends" of this game have told us time and time again.

As those Legends have told us, it is far easier to drill and place a bolt than it is to say no, leave the rock and the impossible to lay as it has for millions of years.

The intrusion of any bolt in the high mountains, is simply taking away the virginity and purity of nature. And imposing the artificial eight Aces that says look, I won!

What about your bolted rap route Granite Spire?! No bolts in the mountains huh? What you got about 10 bolts or so up there?

Does the ability to rap your route give it the ability to exist in a practical sense? Which is fine! Just like MSMR requires bolts to exist the very same practical sense? Remember Chief, nobody is arguing with you on the rules pertaining to the method of bolt placement - which are based on bureaucratic line drawing. Again your point has been made.

If your rap route is not pertinent to the existence of the route and a walk off IS viable - then wtf are they doing there? That rock has been there for millions of years and now you have altered it and "over bolted" in your definition. Which side of the story are you on?

There is NO VIABLE SAFE WALK OFF on White Peregrines. It is a Spire with no ridgeline what so ever to walk off.



And there are only 6 original hand drilled bolts on 900 feet (6 Pitches) of rock. We placed 4 Pins and five fixed nuts to accompany the 3/8 X 2 3/4" Fixe Wedge SS bolts/Hangers. All to safely rappel off the route. NOT TO ASCEND THE LINE. There ARE NO LEAD BOLTS on the entire route... NONE! I returned three weeks later and replaced two of the pins with bolts. Again, hand drilled.

Pitch 5, the "Crux Money Pitch", entails a 40' runout traverse out onto the face, place one very marginal #2 TCU as a directional and then another vertical runout of 35-40' before any decent pro can be placed.

Brutus confessed the following morning that this was the most committing Pitch of his life. We agreed NO BOLT would ever go there. Only style and ability will be ones protection.

There are over 12 sustained sections of .10a-c climbing with runouts of up to 40-50'. The .10c variation of P2 is runout for over 55'. I led that on the second ascent.

This route as all the others that I have been a part of in the High Sierra, are all done in "Old Skool" bold boltless lead style.

Big difference than the 34 PD'd LEAD bolts ya'll have on just three and half P's.

BTW, your bolts/hangers weren't SS. Shame... that entire section of the SFLPP is a water trough in Winter and those bolts will get weathered and compromised in a very short time.

The Chief wrote:This route as all the others that I have been a part in the High Sierra, are all done in "Old Skool" bold boltless lead style.

Bottom line is that you sure do NOT have a problem placing bolts in mountains. Of your two "published" Sierra climbs, both happen to have a bolted rap route. How many others do?

NOT SURE IF YOU KNOW THIS OR NOT BUT BOLTED RAP ROUTES IN THE SIERRA ARE HARDLY "OLD SKOOL" BTW

Again, if bolts have no place in the mountains: DO NOT PUT THEM IN AND THEN CRITICIZE OTHERS FOR USING THEM.

According to your "Chips, Fingers..." TR you brag about placing over 300+ bolted anchors! WOW, that is impressive, that is 600 bolts and those are just anchors (I am sure they were all SS too)! BTW how many of those were in the mountains! Better go edit that with your stealth editing abilities.

I like how you reckon that fixed anchor you stumbled onto on your "FA" of "Chips, Fingers..." was probably just there just for rapping BTW. Interesting huh! Find anything else up there?

I was lucky enough to nab what I think is the 3rd or 4th ascent of this route, and even luckier to lead every pitch. Not only is this route fucking incredible, but I think its closer to 5.11a than 5.10c. The bolting is perfect in my opinion (I don't know what all this crap about over-bolting is about). If you want an awesome experience in an incredible setting, go climb this route, just read and re-read the approach beta if you've never been back there before.