Let's just say no, there is no wilderness in the main part of the European Alps. But the landscapes and vertical relief are incredible. And I've easily spent full days alone. If you think you'll be pining for the thought of a bear nearby, then just go north and west rather than across the ocean :p. I've met really friendly people in the Dolomites, and it was just as nice an experience as realizing I could be gnawed on with no help for 20 miles in any direction (don't get me wrong that's nice too!).

Lauteraar Hut is above Unteraargletscher. Schreckhorn Hut and Staumauer Grimselhospiz are not far from there. Anyway, it's a very beautiful area

Diego Sahagún wrote:There is a refuge (Lauteraar Hut) above Lauteraargletscher. Schreckhorn Hut and Staumauer Grimselhospiz are not far from there. Anyway, it's a very beautiful area

From Grimselhospiz 19 km to the bivy and around 10 km to Lauteraar hut. Even at Lauteraarhut there were only 5 climbers when we were there...

But I didn´t see a wild bear there, only some goats, stonebucks and a wild rabbit...

Surely the dimensions in Canada are wider, so for the bears I would prefer Canada or other Northern countries...

Nikman wrote:There are also (not many but few) places in the Alps with more than 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola.

The Aletschgletscher comes close, but I'm not convinced. It looks as though it's about 20-21 km from Stechelberg to Kuehboden across the glacier. But on Google maps there is a small road south from Stechelberg that would cut the distance by perhaps 2-3 km. (This is only visible on map scales below 500m.) If the straight line from road to road is 18-19 km, then the point farthest from a road is only 9-9.5 km away. However, the map isn't good enough to be sure -- there might be a point that's 10 km away from any development.

Google Maps also shows some gondolas in the area, but it doesn't show which direction they go. Do you know?

Are there any huts nearby?

I should also say that US wildernesses are far from perfect because of airplanes and other sounds of civilization.

Jungfrau group is all but wild
even the streams along the valley from Interlaken to Grindelwald have artificial banks ...
there are many wild areas in the Alps (most in Italy) starting from Argentera range (Alpi Marittime) and ending to the Tarvisian Alps ...
of course they're not so wide, but in some of them you can walk for over one day without finding any construction, road ecc

I will check that 10km-thing with my digital Top25-map when I am home later this day

Ok. Here's the proof. I uploaded an image to demonstrate, that there is a place within Switzerland that has no streets, no trains, no gondolas and no permanent housings within an aerial distance of 10 kilometers.
There are a few SAC-huts inside the area, but those are only open about 8-10 weeks a year from July to September.

<i><b><a href=http://www.summitpost.org/image/361183/152911/20kms-diameter-of-wilderness.html>20kms diameter of "Wilderness"</a></b></i>

The area shown here is a part of the Bernese Alps. You can see a screenshot from a digital Top50 map of Switzerland. The Swiss Map Top25 is more detailed, but it doesn't allow such a big overview.

The radius of the yellow circle is exactly 10 kilometers wide, so it's diameter is 20 kilometers.

In the center of the circle the upper Finsteraargletscher is located. From there no streets, no trains, no gondolas and no permanent housings exist within an aerial distance of 10 kilometers.

The area inside the yellow circle covers 314,1 square kilometers without civilisation. What a refugee in the middle of central Europe right inside one of the areas with world's highest population density.

The altitude drop within the circle from the highest to the lowest point is about 2900 meters estimated.

Estimated 90 percent within the circle is packed with glaciers.

I have to confess, that the 10 kilometer circle has been placed very well indeed and with only 1 kilometer more diameter it would not work anymore. The circle is coming close to Pfingstegg-Gondola and the train to Jungfraujoch at it's northwestern boundaries, to the Rhone-valley in the south and almost touches Berghaus Oberaar at the end of the road to Oberaarsee.

I checked the borderline of the circle with a lower scale. Nothing from the above is inside the yellow line.

Awesome, I'm so happy.

Now let's go for 15 km in Europe south of the Arctic Circle, excluding Russia.

Arthur Digbee wrote:Awesome, I'm so happy.

Now let's go for 15 km.

Guess I can't bring that up in Switzerland since the whole country covers a rather small area of 41.285 km².

I don't have digital maps of France or Italy, but I guess there might be some areas that can go for 15 km in the European Alps.

Nikman wrote:

Arthur Digbee wrote:The definition of "wilderness" in the US Wilderness Act of 1964 is a place "untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Forgive the sexist language.
That's true of some tundra, snow and ice in the Alps -- but those are patches, not continuous wilderness. Is there any place in the Alps that is 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola?

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For sure there are places in the Alps, that fit the US definition of wilderness. There are also (not many but few) places in the Alps with more than 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola. The Bernese Alps are only one example with Europes longest glacier: Aletschgletscher is 23,6 km long (2002) and covers an area about 117,6 km².
Man or Women will always stay (frequent) visitors there and they don't remain.

Are you sure?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... k-08182007

Boy I havent felt this fortunate to live in the west in a long time. Sometimes we forget how great our own backyard is. Keep protecting our wild places or there wont be any!

Arthur Digbee wrote:Now let's go for 15 km in Europe south of the Arctic Circle, excluding Russia.

Ain't there nobody around here, that can proof, there are such places in Europe? I can't bring it up in Germany or Switzerland, but I guess there are such places in many Euro-countries, e. g. Scotland, Norway, Sweden, Poland, Tschech Rep., Slowakia, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Greece, ...) ?!

Jostedalsbreen and Hardangervidda both south of the artic circle

Hardangervidda ~6.500 km²

Jostedalsbreen ~ 60km long and 1.310 km² ice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardangervidda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jostedalsbreen

also very idyllic but not as remoted as Hardangervidda our famous Lüneburger Heide

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCneburger_Heide

Sebastian Hamm wrote:also very idyllic but not as remoted as Hardangervidda our famous Lüneburger Heide

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCneburger_Heide

But the Heide is full of roads; the Wikipedia article lists three Autobahnen.

Hardangervidda is ~6500 km² but note that Yellowstone is 8987 km² ; Wood Buffalo NP in Canada is the world's 2nd largest, at 44,807 km², and Northeast Greenland National Park is #1 at 972000 km².

Anyway, how far are our Norwegians from a road? There are small roads around most of the Hardangervidda, and a few roads that enter it a little ways (in the NW and NE). It looks to me as if the narrow "waist" across Hardangervidda is roadless and about 30 km long. That means that the most remote point is 15 km from a road or a bit more - - you have successfully met my challenge!

For those of you keeping score at home, Thorofare (in Yellowstone) is 40 km from a road, and Siskwit Point (Isle Royale) is a little bit more if islands can play this game.

Speaking of "islands," what's the most remote place in Australia?