This topic is directed to climbers in general, in order to get opinions, ideas, feedback, etc., but it is also directed towards those involved in running the SP web site.

As summitpost has increased in both breadth, depth, and quality of information and people actively contributing to the site, it has become an amazing resource for hiking, scrambling, and climbing in the mountains. However, I still believe that there is a place for guidebooks in this emerging age of the online 'wiki-style guides', but the model for such a guidebook should change in order to better complement the internet guides.

I'm beginning to work on a project to fill an empty niche in the guidebook market, so I would love to get some dialog on this issue so that I can attempt to develop a guidebook for the digital age that is both analogue and electronic, and that is complementary to information already available or continuing to grow on the internet. I can lay out what I see as strengths and weaknesses of the various media later if people are interested in discussing this, as well as my developing plan for my project, but I'll wait and do that later if there's sufficient interest.

So, enough of my rambling. To start things off, I have a couple of specific questions:

1. What do SP creators and users think about a guidebook that develops from a collaborative effort, partly on summitpost? e.g. the guidebook would likely reference/give special thanks to SP. Pros? Cons? Would SP be appreciative of this? Could SP provide any support in return? (just curious on this last one - I'll be working on the project regardless, just for the fun of it ).

2. What do SP creators and users think about a guidebook that directly references the summitpost web pages? (including hyperlinks in the PDF/CD version) (one drawback of a guidebook in print/CD form is that it is static. For up to date conditions, more comprehensive and recent photos, or increased information about a route, it could be nice for users of the book to have direct links to the appropriate areas of SP in order to go beyond the guide).

Cheers,

Mark

Sounds like a great idea...but what area is the guidebook about?

Utah's Wasatch Range, specifically geared towards scramblers and mountaineers. Currently no guidebook really exists for this, and the runner ups aren't very well done IMHO.

I think it's a great idea, and you could also leverage SP's photography strength to make something that was very attractive.

But, and on the basis of some hard-earned experience on collaborative projects, I'd recommend that you have a leader (or small leading group) willing to exercise a firm editorial hand.

RE: Collaborative Projects:

ah, don't worry about that. I'd be doing this as my own project, so collaboration would be with people assisting certain elements (e.g. photos, info, fact-checking, software/scripting, design, ideas/suggestions, etc.). I'm more than happy to do everything on the project myself, but I'd also like to include others in order to make a better product.

PellucidWombat wrote:RE: Collaborative Projects:

ah, don't worry about that. I'd be doing this as my own project, so collaboration would be with people assisting certain elements (e.g. photos, info, fact-checking, software/scripting, design, ideas/suggestions, etc.). I'm more than happy to do everything on the project myself, but I'd also like to include others in order to make a better product.

Ahh . . . but then you have to figure out how to empower, validate, and (ahem) reward your contributors.

true, although I'm still not sure how I want compensation (if any). A lot of that might ultimately depend on who/how the book is published. Considering the small market, I might just embrace the gift economy and donate profits to Save Our Canyons

PellucidWombat wrote:1. What do SP creators and users think about a guidebook that develops from a collaborative effort, partly on summitpost?

I think one of the main draws of a guidebook is the consistency of the information, primarily because it's put together by a single (or main) author who builds it with a consistent format. You get used to the author's rating and terminology after a while and feel comfortable with it. The drawback is it's hard to update. SP has the advantage of volume and breadth, but I think it loses a lot with inconsistency. Some pages are good, some have too much information to wade through, some are too scant to be of much value. A hard copy of a collaborative effort sounds like the worst of both worlds. Not sure if that's what you had in mind though...

PellucidWombat wrote:Utah's Wasatch Range, specifically geared towards scramblers and mountaineers. Currently no guidebook really exists for this, and the runner ups aren't very well done IMHO.

I'd rather not see a scrambling/ Mountaineering guide book for the Wasatch, it's already too crowded. Plenty of people are finding there way around just fine.

Bob Burd wrote:

PellucidWombat wrote:1. What do SP creators and users think about a guidebook that develops from a collaborative effort, partly on summitpost?

I think one of the main draws of a guidebook is the consistency of the information, primarily because it's put together by a single (or main) author who builds it with a consistent format. You get used to the author's rating and terminology after a while and feel comfortable with it. The drawback is it's hard to update. SP has the advantage of volume and breadth, but I think it loses a lot with inconsistency. Some pages are good, some have too much information to wade through, some are too scant to be of much value. A hard copy of a collaborative effort sounds like the worst of both worlds. Not sure if that's what you had in mind though...

I guess I should be more clear with that. You've pointed out precisely some of the pros and cons of each medium. By collaborative I'm talking about feedback on format, scope, as well as firsthand information on the few routes I haven't yet done that are (or are not on SP) (which I would be very careful about including) and fact-checking for place/feature names. Ultimately I would do all of the writing, graphic design, and map designing.

One other area of collaboration that I'd heard an interest in was with some people who work in software who had taken an interest in helping to piece together the CD copy, including the 3D flyover navigation part (saving me from doing it purely as an html/javascript file referenced from the guidebook). Google Earth has taken some of the novelty out of this idea, but I think I can do better with selective information and interactivity with the guidebook & Summitpost (does anyone remember the 3D flyover I did with the Wasatch Range on SP as a way to access mountain pages? Sadly I need to work out scripting issues with newer versions of Firefox & Chrome)

The fact that there are guidebook series like Falcon suggests that there are markets for certain classes of books. The professionals at such places can help with many of the legal issues.

There are textbook publishing models that include online accounts for realtime updating if you wanted to go that route. But classic paper would probably do the trick for peakbagging, the mountains don't change.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Forgive me if this has been asked and answered:

1. Who pays to have this guidebook published?
2. How does the author make money on this project?
3. How is the author compensated for this project?
4. How are contributors to be compensated?

1. There are a number of options: small local publishers (I know of several and will approach them with a proposal once I have a viable plan & sample ready). Also, there are publishing services via the internet that do small-scale orders, allowing people to essentially act as their own independent publishers, printing a few copies at a time. I'll be looking into the viability of this option as well, as I don't see this as being anything more than a few printed copies kept at the SLC REI, IME, BD, and Kirkhams stores (going to approach them later with more complete proposals as well).

2. I don't expect the project to be very lucrative, so I'm not really looking for profit. Basically, I have spare time right now (I'm partially unemployed), I like making things, and doing this to a professional standard will help me learn skills for more lucrative book projects in the future for structural engineering (which I'll likely be getting involved with soon).

3. Answered above. I might just have whatever profits exist (beyond the merchants and publishers) be donated to Save Our Canyons or the Wasatch Mountain Club.

4. Ideally the contributions are small enough that they don't mind it being volunteer (especially if I'm donating profits). I'm keeping track of sources (and time, if anyone puts in serious time on the software/scripting end, but so far those who are interested sound like they'd be happy to do it just for fun), so if the book really looks like it might make any noticeable profit, I can easily attribute compensation and/or credit fairly. Since I have first hand experience with most of the routes and areas in the book, I could make a standalone book based solely on my own efforts and experience if people that contribute refuse to allow their work to be used based on disagreements with the book plans.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Forgive me if this has been asked and answered:
I think most internet 'open' source guides are plagarized to a great extent. I don't see how you marry that environment to a legal, money making effort.

Frankly, I have trouble seeing how this is plagiarized if I select material and write things down carefully. Earlier guides do not have proprietary rights to these routes, so if I've done them myself, and most of the information is my own, from my own notes, and in many cases derived from my own wanderings and not following the book (or in other cases, being far more extensive than what was written in the books), then I would not be plagiarizing those sources. The only sticky issue with the book is using maps and aerial/sat photos and software for making the images with appropriate permission, which I will be learning about (good for future knowledge, for reasons stated in #2).

Dingus Milktoast wrote:An observation:

I use online info for peak bagging. I rarely bother with it for rock climbing though, unless its some big assed trade route like the Nose or something.

Otherwise, thumbing a real guide book at the roadside pullout, trying to figure out what to do? That would be totally gay on a iPhone.

DMT

It sounds to me like you're describing more of a cragging book. The routes in the Wasatch are spaced such that reading a guidebook from a pullout would be laughable due to the proximity of the routes and some of their lengths (which would require some planning).

The idea for the book is that it gives one standardized organized presentation of the routes that are out there in one source, and part of that organization has to do with what is presented to the target audience (e.g. minimum standards for what 'routes' are included, what is shown on maps, etc.). Better route descriptions, commentary, and photos in one concentrated location can make it easier for people to decide what routes they want to pursue.

Plus, the 3D navigation part (which would be complementary to the standard TOC & index) is just something that I certainly have appreciated doing from scratch to better conceptualize the architecture and relations of different mountains, so that in and of itself could be valuable/enjoyable for some people that care.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Forgive me if this has been asked and answered:

1. Who pays to have this guidebook published?
2. How does the author make money on this project?
3. How is the author compensated for this project?
4. How are contributors to be compensated?

Oh, just throw a wrench in the works, why don't you?