Now that we have a real “spray” forum, and now that all the spray about “You climb the route, not the grade” has kind of died down, lets get down to the basics of our beloved Yosemite Decimal System. What are its good aspects? What does it really mean?

For starters it is a grading system for free climbing. So if you hang on the rope or pull on some gear you’re not climbing the route or the grade. Let’s say you go to do Astroman, but a couple things go wrong and you have to dangle before you can finish the Endurance Corner. No big deal of course, but then back at camp that night do you say “We did Astroman today,” when actually it did you?

I would say “I tried Astroman today, but did the East Face of The Column instead.” A pair of climbers can say, with genuine pride, that they did the route (at its YDS grade) when no one, leading or following, used aid. Accepting anything less is lowering your standards.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to lecture or preach. But it is a fact that the climbers who developed the YDS were grading free climbing, and they were damned fussy about what that meant. They knew they were on the cutting edge, distinguishing themselves from the older generation of the day.

Speaking for myself, in the true spirit of a spray forum, the list of routes I will say I have done is a lot shorter than it could be were I to slack a little on my free climbing standards. And yes, I have done Astroman (unadulterated spray there!)

Regarding aid climbing? I love it. It’s a great expression of the sport, and snobby free climbers who poo poo aid are missing something great. But, if you go to do a free route with a YDS grade, you have to climb the grade to climb the route. Free climbing is an ethic, and lowering the bar leaves one open to slander.

Although I'm not a purist, I have done some climbing with experienced climbers and I have even had some formal climbing instruction. Here's my two cents on the topic based on whats been handed down to me by my mentors.

If you make it up a route but for whatever reason you "French Free" some part (hang on your pro) You can still claim that you "did" the route, but you have to come clean on how you did it. It's like an asterisk next to your entry in the record book. You still did the route, you just didn't do it as clean as it could be done according the the YDS rating.

So in Kris' previous scenario it would be ethical and more honest to say: I tried Astoman today. I made it to the top of the route but I hung from a stopper while I reached around the corner to place the next piece on the crux move near the top.

Rick, I completely agree.

And what if let's say I make a first ascent of a route, take a flyer on the crux and dangle a bit on the runner to reach for a hold at the side so that I can climb the crux in a different way? And there's still many pitches to the top and time is running low, so there's no time to free the pitch. (Just happened to me recently.) Can't I say that I climbed the route?
Of course I can. I just give it a grade e.g. UIAA VII- A0/AF (about 5.10c/d for you). Maybe it'll be freed at the next attempt and a respective grade will be given.

cheers,
kamil

knoback wrote:Good old YDS. It has withstood huge changes in the sport and it still gives you a pretty good idea of what you might be up against for a given route. The only bad thing sport climbing has done is elevate the status of ratings to the point that people assume it 's all they need to know about a route.

Interesting point. In it’s inception YDS was meant to grade a climb by it’s hardest move. If a climb were to have 50M of continuous 5.10 that would be something the grade alone would not tell you. Thus it was common to have easier and harder routes, both correctly graded at the same level. The climb “Rubicon,” in Joshua Tree poses this dilemma. It can be argued that there is not a move on the climb which surpasses the 5.10b grade, yet the difficulty of putting the whole pitch together has some climbers calling it 5.10d, which it is not.

Dingus Miltoast wrote: …kids lining up like jet planes on final, for college.

Now that’s an image.

I’ve always thought that we could have avoided “breaking” the YDS by adopting the French system for grading sport routes. It seems to work quite well.

Borut Kantušer wrote:

ksolem wrote: ...A pair of climbers can say, with genuine pride, that they did the route (at its YDS grade) when no one, leading or following, used aid. Accepting anything less is lowering your standards.
...

Tough on the belay slaves!

Ha! Borut, if you go up on something with a “slave” who can’t climb the grade and you lead the pitches clean we’ll let you check it off in your book as done. I’ve done the same. I was wondering how far I could push it before someone called me out…

I don't get the whole fascination with discussing grades to eternity and back and climbing is something I do a fair bit of. The only person I prefer to discuss grading much with is my partner directly after a climb, and it is never brought up again really. We analyze it, decide whether we thought it was soft or hard based on our experience and refer same knowledge on with any beta provided to the outside world. My wife, dog, daughters, and public in general don't give a shit really. Same with hang dogging something. Only cheated yourself, only person who gives a damn is yourself...only person losing any sleep over it is yourself. No different than running a 10K. I have seen folks cheat on trail courses. Never reported it. Who cares? No money involved. I find some climbers just a tad egocentric. They actually think somebody else might give a damn? Unless you are in the Olympics, have sponsors to support or are paid pro wages.....just climb for yourself and try not to piss on others corn flakes man. Chill out and come to the realization that nobody else really gives a damn what style you climbed a route, except your own person.

Whether I am racing or climbing, I am only out to prove something to myself and fully realize nobody else gives a rats ass what my time was or how well I climbed. Grades are all over the frigging place and always well be.

ksolem wrote: Borut, if you go up on something with a “slave” who can’t climb the grade and you lead the pitches clean we’ll let you check it off in your book as done. I’ve done the same. I was wondering how far I could push it before someone called me out…

Sometimes the freaking pieces get stuck.

Dow Williams wrote: ...No different than running a 10K. I have seen folks cheat on trail courses. Never reported it. Who cares? No money involved.

You and I are different in this regard. Not to say which one of us is right, but if I saw someone shortcut on a race I would blow the whistle. Why does money make it different?

And as far as climbing is concerned, it is a sport with a rich history, traditions, and landmark achievements by heroic figures. So yes, a lot of people do care.

And yes, grades are all over the place. A lot of this variety tells a story about climbing. Back in the day, so to speak, it was a point of style to make light of difficulty, so a climber would suggest a grade on the low side. Now lot's of climbers want the numbers to be higher. I find it all interesting and entertaining.

Ah yes. Of course you are right. We'd have to sneak it in through the gyms without telling them it's French.

And how about those Brits. Sure makes for an interesting campfire though.

"Blimey, I'm not sure it would really cut the grade as 6a e2, or 6b e1 with a bit of Very Hard Difficult Very Severe on the easy pitches..."

Dow Williams wrote:I don't get the whole fascination with discussing grades to eternity and back and climbing is something I do a fair bit of. The only person I prefer to discuss grading much with is my partner directly after a climb, and it is never brought up again really. We analyze it, decide whether we thought it was soft or hard based on our experience and refer same knowledge on with any beta provided to the outside world. My wife, dog, daughters, and public in general don't give a shit really. Same with hang dogging something. Only cheated yourself, only person who gives a damn is yourself...only person losing any sleep over it is yourself. No different than running a 10K. I have seen folks cheat on trail courses. Never reported it. Who cares? No money involved. I find some climbers just a tad egocentric. They actually think somebody else might give a damn? Unless you are in the Olympics, have sponsors to support or are paid pro wages.....just climb for yourself and try not to piss on others corn flakes man. Chill out and come to the realization that nobody else really gives a damn what style you climbed a route, except your own person.

Whether I am racing or climbing, I am only out to prove something to myself and fully realize nobody else gives a rats ass what my time was or how well I climbed. Grades are all over the frigging place and always well be.

Dow, Don't you just cringe when you hear some bragert at a campfire, spraying about how this climb and that climb, and it was way eazy for them and its way over rated etc etc etc......

When you watched em in action on the climb, dogin hard, stick cliping, maybe even a pendo through the crux......

Don't ya call them on their shit?

And I agree with you on this point, nobody gives a shit. Except on E,S,+S.

Guyzo wrote:Dow, Don't you just cringe when you hear some bragert at a campfire, spraying about how this climb and that climb, and it was way eazy for them and its way over rated etc etc etc......

When you watched em in action on the climb, dogin hard, stick cliping, maybe even a pendo through the crux......

Don't ya call them on their shit?

And I agree with you on this point, nobody gives a shit. Except on E,S,+S.

Good question. No I don't. Same with the racing. I think I am missing something that most folks grabble with on this. I suppose it had to do with growing up with zero praise and therefore never needing or wanting it. Absolutely only caring what the man in the mirror thinks. I am very self sufficient. Some folks associate that with having a chip on my shoulder. Fair enough. Suppose I owe that to where I have gotten today though, but yeah, zero need for engaging others who are only causing suffering onto themselves. The cheat in the race? I can only imagine how I would feel if I felt the need to do that....why confront them, they have not harmed me in anyway. They are strangers and have issues to deal with. I have no involvement. Hangdogging, I, you, everyone has done it and hates the feeling after not getting a route clean. It is our own personal demon. People calling each other out around campfires? Just bogus egos to me. I don't hang with that crowd. Of course I don't hang with the bragging crowd either. If I meet you for coffee, and get the inkingly you are that type, I won't get on a rope with you. There are folks right here on SP that learned that (actually the source of their angst when trying to take a poke at some non-relevant contribution-most just don't know some of these funny underlying storylines, nor do I feel it is my duty to share my opinions regarding those matters). I made a damn good living reading people and it still serves me well. But I am sure I am not spot on every time. So to each his own. I typically find that the dude trying to put some other dude down for bragging, normally is an insecure dog himself who will no doubt be the bragger at the next campfire. Just my 2c worth.

Dow Williams wrote:

Guyzo wrote:Dow, Don't you just cringe when you hear some bragert at a campfire, spraying about how this climb and that climb, and it was way eazy for them and its way over rated etc etc etc......

When you watched em in action on the climb, dogin hard, stick cliping, maybe even a pendo through the crux......

Don't ya call them on their shit?

And I agree with you on this point, nobody gives a shit. Except on E,S,+S.

Good question. No I don't. Same with the racing. I think I am missing something that most folks grabble with on this. I suppose it had to do with growing up with zero praise and therefore never needing or wanting it. Absolutely only caring what the man in the mirror thinks. I am very self sufficient. Some folks associate that with having a chip on my shoulder. Fair enough. Suppose I owe that to where I have gotten today though, but yeah, zero need for engaging others who are only causing suffering onto themselves. The cheat in the race? I can only imagine how I would feel if I felt the need to do that....why confront them, they have not harmed me in anyway. They are strangers and have issues to deal with. I have no involvement. Hangdogging, I, you, everyone has done it and hates the feeling after not getting a route clean. It is our own personal demon. People calling each other out around campfires? Just bogus egos to me. I don't hang with that crowd. Of course I don't hang with the bragging crowd either. If I meet you for coffee, and get the inkingly you are that type, I won't get on a rope with you. There are folks right here on SP that learned that (actually the source of their angst when trying to take a poke at some non-relevant contribution-most just don't know some of these funny underlying storylines, nor do I feel it is my duty to share my opinions regarding those matters). I made a damn good living reading people and it still serves me well. But I am sure I am not spot on every time. So to each his own. I typically find that the dude trying to put some other dude down for bragging, normally is an insecure dog himself who will no doubt be the bragger at the next campfire. Just my 2c worth.

Good answer.
Thanks

Dow Williams wrote:Good question. No I don't. Same with the racing. I think I am missing something that most folks grabble with on this. I suppose it had to do with growing up with zero praise and therefore never needing or wanting it. Absolutely only caring what the man in the mirror thinks. I am very self sufficient. Some folks associate that with having a chip on my shoulder. Fair enough. Suppose I owe that to where I have gotten today though, but yeah, zero need for engaging others who are only causing suffering onto themselves. The cheat in the race? I can only imagine how I would feel if I felt the need to do that....why confront them, they have not harmed me in anyway. They are strangers and have issues to deal with. I have no involvement. Hangdogging, I, you, everyone has done it and hates the feeling after not getting a route clean. It is our own personal demon. People calling each other out around campfires? Just bogus egos to me. I don't hang with that crowd. Of course I don't hang with the bragging crowd either. If I meet you for coffee, and get the inkingly you are that type, I won't get on a rope with you. There are folks right here on SP that learned that (actually the source of their angst when trying to take a poke at some non-relevant contribution-most just don't know some of these funny underlying storylines, nor do I feel it is my duty to share my opinions regarding those matters). I made a damn good living reading people and it still serves me well. But I am sure I am not spot on every time. So to each his own. I typically find that the dude trying to put some other dude down for bragging, normally is an insecure dog himself who will no doubt be the bragger at the next campfire. Just my 2c worth.

I hear what you're saying, but sometimes it's just fun to knock someone down a peg, you know? I mean, if I'm going to sit around listening to him brag, why should I deny myself a little enjoyment at his expense? I suppose it had to do with growing up with too much praise and therefore always needing to see others get less of it. I'd talk more about myself, but I have to get back to my important succesful-person work.

Dow Williams wrote: The cheat in the race? I can only imagine how I would feel if I felt the need to do that....why confront them, they have not harmed me in anyway.

Fair enough, and well said.

Dow, I am not pointing a finger at you here, we have never met, but my experience has been that many climbers who say all the stuff about only competing with themselves, not being concerned about ratings, nobody else really cares, and so on end up being the most competitive partners.

I don't usually mind this, I actually thrive on some healthy competition so long as everyone more or less plays fair, which is why I'll call out the cheater in the race.

And while you may be right that in the big picture few people care how you climb, I really value the friendship and mutual respect of my climbing partners and our little community. Among this group people do care, and don’t take shortcuts.

As you say, to each their own...

ksolem wrote:"Blimey, I'm not sure it would really cut the grade as 6a e2, or 6b e1 with a bit of Very Hard Difficult Very Severe on the easy pitches..."

Actually, I think 6b/e1 corresponds to "Extremely Mega Cracking Stiff"...

Hell, I probably spew as much as anyone. If I see someone that I don't know bragging about bagging something that they flailed on, I wouldn't say a thing. But if that braggert is one of my buddies, he is in for a rough time! And I would expect (and do get) the exact same treatment in return.

As for getting up the route, I agree with Kris; if you hung on the gear you didn't do the route. You may have done all the moves, but you didn't link it. Now if you lowered back to the previous belay and start over, I will give you that one.

But then who does this matter to? Only to me and mine. Everyone else if free to do as they please but in our crowd there are two rules and they always apply:

Show no weakness.
Show no mercy.