I recently led my first real ice route. It was a very moderate WI2 route that followed a left facing dihedral/open book. The route was missing great screw placement in front of me but the wall to my right had good ice and would eat up the intermittent piece of rock pro. I found it a massive pain in the a** to place screws on the wall to my right with leashed tools and I wound up just saying f*ck it and would run it out a bit.

So I guess my question is, what is the easiest way to place screws with leashed tools? I have Petzl Aztars and I'm debating converting them to leashless tools. Would that have any downside?

I've attached a pic of the route in case my description was clear.

http://www.summitpost.org/image/582123/P1-of-the-North-Face.html

*edit for grammar

So return them at the end of the lease, and get new ones.

Not all leashes are the same. The easiest leashes to get out of quickly have quick-release clamps near the tool end of the leash. You can unleash using just one hand (the same one you're trying to get free to use a screw). Other leashes have big pull tabs at your wrist, but to use these you need to bring your other hand (or your teeth) over, which is not always convenient.

However, the quick-release clamps have their downsides too - they can get caught on gear, and it's certainly possible to accidentally pinch them, thus unleashing yourself without meaning to. they aint' cheap either

You're just starting out on ice; my advice is don't go leashless yet. Leashes are a big help in reducing fatigue.

Congratulations on your first lead and nice shot of the route.

To answer your question there are several things you can do to make placing screws easier when using leashed tools. First, since it was a WI2 grade it may have been possible to saw out a nice ledge to get good footing so you don't have to rely on your tool(s) to secure your position. This frees up the hands for easier screw placement but is always a good thing to look for so you can take the weight off your arms. Next, and I hate to ask, but did you drive your tool securely in the ice and get out of the leash before placing the screw? I ask because I've see people try to place screws with their tool still hanging by the leash on their wrist which is very difficult. Lastly, you can always slip your other arm through the leash up to your elbow while hanging from the tool so you can use two hands to place the screw.

I guess I should explain the process I was using to place screws.

1) Kick a good stance or just make sure I was comfortable balancing on my feet.
2) Escape from right tool. Screws were on the right side of my harness, ice wall for placement was on right side.
3) Place screw a little bit above waist level to allow me to give it a good crank.
4) Clip draw, clip rope, re-leash my right hand and keep on moving.

While I was confident my feet were not going to slip out from under me, I stayed attached to my left tool. Maybe trusting my feet unconditionally is an experience thing.

Any tips are appreciated.

Sounds good to me. I wouldn't let go of both tools without a good reason.

What part of that would you do differently if you were leashless?

One little tip: in addition to not placing the screw too high, place it close to your body. This makes it easier to apply the push you need to get it to start biting initially. It's easiest if your hips are facing into the wall you're screwing (insert joke here); you kind of tense your stomach muscles and push from the hip, pushing against both your feet and pulling against your tool. If you were trying to point the screw sideways relative to how you were facing, that could be awkward.

PS make sure you can reach your screws with either hand...

Brad Marshall wrote: First, since it was a WI2 grade it may have been possible to saw out a nice ledge to get good footing so you don't have to rely on your tool(s) to secure your position. I've see people try to place screws with their tool still hanging by the leash on their wrist which is very difficult. Lastly, you can always slip your other arm through the leash up to your elbow while hanging from the tool so you can use two hands to place the screw.

You don't lead much real ice do you Brad. This is all terrible advice.

WI2 you're just standing there anyway, letting the tool dangle works just fine, and cf'ed and tangled into leashes to use two hands, come on!

My advice...

Go leashless.
Or use quick release or quick exit leashes.
Place screws low and in front of you. Off to the side is always hard to do.
Realize that the hardest thing about ice is stopping to place screws, and that you should be in a comfort zone where falling is out of the question. This frees you to just climb between the stances or rock gear and not worry about it.

nartreb wrote:
PS make sure you can reach your screws with either hand...

I'll see your advice...and raise you one: make sure you can place screws with either hand.

Now, I just started leading last year, but during the training phase the previous year I made sure to practice racking -- and placing -- screws from both sides of my harness. The advice to place the screws down low at waist level is spot on, as well.

As far as using two hands to put in pro, well...I'd practice more so you can do it one-handed.

Getting a hand out of a slip-lock type leash shouldn't be THAT hard (esp. on WI2 stuff). I was able to do it, and I'm a gumby. That said, I did get a pair of Clipper leashes for the Quarks at the end of last season, and I'm keen to try them out. Only problem is that we haven't had any frickin' ice on the Right Coast until just recently. Sheesh!!

EverydayExplorer wrote:I guess I should explain the process I was using to place screws.

1) Kick a good stance or just make sure I was comfortable balancing on my feet.
2) Escape from right tool. Screws were on the right side of my harness, ice wall for placement was on right side.
3) Place screw a little bit above waist level to allow me to give it a good crank.
4) Clip draw, clip rope, re-leash my right hand and keep on moving.
While I was confident my feet were not going to slip out from under me, I stayed attached to my left tool. Maybe trusting my feet unconditionally is an experience thing.

Your sequence looks OK. Simple advice - have patience, climb more and it'll get easier with practice. IMHO you need to be a pretty good climber to lead ice with leashless tools. I have BD Android quick clips and I like them but quick clips have their drawbacks. I used simple leashes when you need to twist the hand to get out of the leashes and that was OK but not great. I keep my screws lightly lubed with DW-40 - I think it helps to place.

Get clip style leashes for sure. I was able to retrofit my aztar to the quark leash without too much effort.
I'm still going back and forth leashed or leashless. I definitely get less pumped with leashes, but the ability to have either hand free to easily place pro is a plus for leashless. I look forward to practicing both this winter.

An obvious point, but if you're just climbing WI2, you don't really need your leashes for anything other than to keep you from accidentally dropping your tool. Irregardless, you should be able to slip your glove out if needed.

You can either let your tool dangle or bury it in a good placement and just take your glove/hand out, leaving the tool in the ice, which is my preference. Keep in mind that different people have different preferences on how they climb, so take the "I do this more than you" comments with a grain of salt.

Also, I think it was Brandon who mentioned that you're just climbing WI2, which isn't steep. You should be able to just stand there and place gear. Sometimes turning one foot sideways, so you're not standing on both sets of frontpoints helps to create a more stable platform.

One thing that will help your technique is to toprope something with just one tool, which will help your balance and flow. That way when you're just hanging on one tool to place a screw, etc., you'll feel more comfortable. You can also TR stuff without tools, to learn to start trusting your feet.

fatdad wrote:One thing that will help your technique is to toprope something with just one tool, which will help your balance and flow. That way when you're just hanging on one tool to place a screw, etc., you'll feel more comfortable. You can also TR stuff without tools, to learn to start trusting your feet.

Since reading that the legendary Duncan Ferguson once led Vail's Rigid Designator without tools, I've been calling an ice climb with one tool a half-Duncan and one with no tools a full-Duncan. It's a very effective exercise even if your name isn't Duncan and, like me, you only practice it on easy topropes.

I pretty much half-Duncaned and full-Duncaned all season last year (on harder TRs), because of a broken shoulder

The Aztar can be retro fitted with the Clipper Leash made for the Quark, just remove the small black rubber plug from the top of the shaft and you will see the hole for the small bolt and nut of the Clipper Leash.
If you decide to go leashless with these tolls you can get a better feeling by adding a couple of accessories to the tools:
One is the Grivel Trigger http://www.trailspace.com/gear/grivel/trigger/
I use this on my Quarks when I climb leashless on alpine terrains. up to WI4-M4.
It can fit almost any ice tool`s shaft, there are 2 sizes.
The other is a pinky rest. You can see if the "Slider" from Grivel works. This is great because it can slide up when you need the tools in cane position for snow climbing.
If the slider does not work you can fabricate something yourself. For me it depends on the type of terrain, a competent ice climber should not have a problem to climb WI2 or WI3 leashless, either waterfall ice or alpine ice, because the leash comes into play when you place pro, and on these grades you place pro with good rest for your feet. So if it feels awkward for you to do so on these grades, I think it is a matter of technique and since you are just starting it is normal.
On steeper terrain on steep WI4+ and WI5, I personally feel that it becomes strenuous to go leashless with a tool like the Aztar or Quark type unless you are super competent and strong, therefore for me it makes more sense either to use the leashes of climb with a true leashless tool.



http://www.trailspace.com/gear/grivel/slider/

brandon wrote:Or use quick release or quick exit leashes.

This is what i was taught..and has worked well for me.

You might try setting the right tool (in this example), clipping your draw to the tool and then the rope. The tool acts like a piece of pro. Gives you another, closer point of contact while placing the screw (if not totally solid). Then, when the screw is set, just unclip from the tool and clip to the screw -- done.