We're climbing in the Palisades in July and will be doing Polemonium from the U-Notch and west side. Porcella and Burns (Climbing California's Fourteeners) say that you can summit Polemonium from the top of the U- Notch, or "Alternatively, you may be able to hike 100-300 feet west from the top of U-Notch and look for weaknesses in the northwest-facing rock. Summitting is possible this way, and potentially easier, but the route finding is more difficult." Has anyone climbed this "alternative" route from the U-Notch? If so, can you briefly describe the climb and routefinding?

I've never been the way you're describing but honestly I don't think it'd be necessary. I've always gone from the top of the U Notch. If you use the route that starts at the top of the U Notch it goes at 5.6. I'd be surprised if there's any easier way up it by walking down 100'-300' then looking for a route. It would most likely need to meet up with the other route near the top on an exposed 5.6 pitch that takes protection well. From the U Notch the pitches are short, the route finding is reasonable and it protects OK. The first pitch is a slight traverse right and is the hardest to protect but again I'd describe it as reasonable to get pro into.

I tried to find a picture of the route that shows it from the start of the U Notch and I don't have one but here's a shot taken from North Pal. I was standing near a rap station that leads into the U Notch. I drew in the route I normally take, which shows all except the first pitch.



This picture shows what it looks like from the U Notch looking up at the first pitch.


The final pitch of exposed 5.6 below the summit.


Topping out on the final pitch. This shot was taken from the summit.

nevada99 wrote: "Alternatively, you may be able to hike 100-300 feet west from the top of U-Notch and look for weaknesses in the northwest-facing rock. Summitting is possible this way, and potentially easier, but the route finding is more difficult." Has anyone climbed this "alternative" route from the U-Notch? If so, can you briefly describe the climb and routefinding?

This sounds very similar to the way we did it, though I don't remember hiking 100-300 feet, it was easy climbing, but the route finding was nothing short of horrible. Believe it or not, we did an overhang that was at least 5.8. We saw a number of rap stations where people had given up going this way and gone down instead. If I were to do it again I would go the way Kurt Wedberg is showing.

The first time I did Polemonium Peak from the U Notch, I just scrambled up and back down in boots. Of course, it was only class 4 (according to Roper) back in 1990. Secor bumped it up to 5.2, and now it appears to be 5.6. You had better get up there soon. It’ll be 5.8 any day now.

bobpickering wrote:The first time I did Polemonium Peak from the U Notch, I just scrambled up and back down in boots. Of course, it was only class 4 (according to Roper) back in 1990. Secor bumped it up to 5.2, and now it appears to be 5.6. You had better get up there soon. It’ll be 5.8 any day now.

Ha ha ha... yes I could see this part of the route being given a 4th class rating. It's a great example of how subjective ratings can be. When my father climbed the East Buttress of Whitney in the 1950s he said it was 4th class with one 5.1 move. It's now 5.7 on most people's published beta. The 3rd Pillar of Mt. Dana used to be 5.9 and it's now 5.10b.

Back to the route on Polemonium... I'd rather tell someone it's 5.6 and have it be easy for them than tell them it's 4th class and find out they got terrified by the exposure .

When I did Polemonium from the U notch is was 5.11 ish, so your chances of an easy route are gone.

Just kidding, I remember three parts. First we started below the top of the U Notch on the west side, I don't remember how many feet below, but it was not much. The first "pitch" was maybe 50-60 feet of class 4. Then there was a short maybe 15-20 foot climb that was like a chimney with 200' of air below. My friend said it was 5.4 I think. That was the "crux" if I recall correctly. The final part was 100 feet of class 3 and then we were on top. To return to the U notch, we descended the 100 feet of class 3 in a westerly direction, then did one rappel back to the U Notch.

I hope that helps.

Kurt Wedberg wrote:I'd rather tell someone it's 5.6 and have it be easy for them than tell them it's 4th class and find out they got terrified by the exposure .

I've hear that argument before, and I must disagree. When you tell people that an easier route is 5.6 (or 5.8 or whatever), they think they can climb 5.6 or 5.8. Then they go somewhere else and try a "real" 5.6 or 5.8 and get "terrified by the exposure" or worse. Ratings are only useful if they are consistent.

bobpickering wrote:

Kurt Wedberg wrote:I'd rather tell someone it's 5.6 and have it be easy for them than tell them it's 4th class and find out they got terrified by the exposure .

I've hear that argument before, and I must disagree. When you tell people that an easier route is 5.6 (or 5.8 or whatever), they think they can climb 5.6 or 5.8. Then they go somewhere else and try a "real" 5.6 or 5.8 and get "terrified by the exposure" or worse. Ratings are only useful if they are consistent.

Point well taken Bob. I think the problem lies in your last sentence: "Ratings are only useful if they are consistent". Unfortunately they're subjective. There's a big difference between someone who can climb 5.9 at Sespe Gorge and someone who can lead the Open Book at Tahquitz, which is the first 5.9 in the country. Double Cross in Joshua Tree is 5.7+ but a lot of people who climb much harder than that have had problems with that route. It's also seen many accidents over the years. I often tell people to call yourself a 5.9 leader, meaning you can lead any 5.9 put in front of you, you really should be comfortably leading 5.10b. One of my favorite names of a climb is in Owens River Gorge called "Valley 5.8". It's a fun climb rated 5.10b in the Gorge but if it was in Yosemite Valley it'd be a 5.8. I love the subtle statement the name of that climb makes. I'll also say that if you see a 5.8 listed in a guidebook and you're used to leading 5.8 (or higher) chances are you're going to be able to climb it. People do get fooled though. When it comes to the 4th class rating there is a lot of room for interpretation and I believe even more room for subjectivity.

So, I see your point. I just think it'd be easier to do that if ratings were consistent but they aren't. I think this is also why we have people out there who are known as "sandbaggers" .

Kurt Wedberg wrote:One of my favorite names of a climb is in Owens River Gorge called "Valley 5.8". It's a fun climb rated 5.10b in the Gorge but if it was in Yosemite Valley it'd be a 5.8.

Kurt, I liked the story about “Valley 5.8”. I see the point about ratings being subjective, but this goes further than that.

There seems to be a deliberate trend to increase the ratings of EVERYTHING over time. Dig out your old Sierra guides by Voge, Smatko, or Roper and see how many climbs have magically gotten harder, sometimes MUCH harder. I once WALKED up a “class 5” summit block in Colorado wearing hiking boots and a pack, and not using my hands. Remember, the ratings system we all use today is the “Yosemite Decimal System”, and it’s supposedly based on Yosemite Valley climbs. 5.9 was thought to be the hardest route a human could climb. It’s really too bad that climbers knowingly overrate so many climbs, because this renders the YDS meaningless.

bobpickering wrote:Remember, the ratings system we all use today is the “Yosemite Decimal System”, and it’s supposedly based on Yosemite Valley climbs. 5.9 was thought to be the hardest route a human could climb. It’s really too bad that climbers knowingly overrate so many climbs, because this renders the YDS meaningless.

Yes Bob you're correct on that. Ratings have changed over time. By that standard the Open Book at Tahquitz is the 5.9 by which all over 5.9's should be measured. It's interesting to note that although the system is called the YDS the nation's first 5.7, 5.8, 5.9, 5.10, 5.11, and 5.12 were put up in Tahquitz. That's one of the things I love about climbing there. You're going to the place where the ratings were made.

http://www.summitpost.org/from-the-u-notch/155706

Note our own Bob Burd calls it class 4.

People vary hugely on how they integrate the sense of exposure with the difficulty of the rating.

There is a section on Lady Mt that is called 5.7 by some burly climbers; yet most people just go up it unprotected because a fall would be just 15 feet (that could still kill you, but somehow it doesn't seem as bad as a fall of 200').

It's interesting, there are many variations. I was looking at pellucid wombat's photo, and he shows a 5.2 crux before gaining the ridge. When I did it, we went to the ridgecrest just above the notch and uphill from the pinnacle, then went up (out of view in the photo) and it was short but very exposed, straight up, then regained pellucid wombat's route for the final 100 feet. Pellucid wombat's route looks better, definitely less exposed.

The constant rating inflation reminds me of the old joke about women making poor carpenters because men keep telling them that a five-inch object is actually eight inches long.

Again, the perception of exposure greatly changes how a person views rating. I'm not a climber, more of a mountaineer. Occasionally I free-climb something with bad exposure, then top-belay the others. Usually the belayees tell me it's not so bad at all. These aren't arrogant people; it's just that once the sense of peeling off backwards is removed, they look for and use holds I might not have trusted, when I was viewing a different penalty system.

Thanks to everyone responding to my question about the climb to Polemonium. I love Summitpost. Last year I did Polemonium from the Sill Ridge, but will be doing N. Pal then Polemonium on same day this year. After Pol we plan to bivy on the ridge to Sill. I saw several bivy spots there last summer. Can anyone describe the N. Pal ridge over to the top of the U Notch? How is the rappel down into the U Notch? Are there rap stations to break up the descent into several pitches? I am more of a mountaineer than a climber also, so I'm wondering how technical this rappel is.