To answer your questions. 2 bottles will get you to Muir. There is good running water at Pebble Creek about 7000' on the trail in the summer if you need it. After that your on the snowfield. There is no running water at Muir. Just boil it man. There is a lot of yellow snow up there. Takes me about 7 hours to get to Muir and 7-8 to get to summit. Take 2 bottles min. I like 3. Hate running out on the way down. Get Mike Gauthier's book, "Mount Rainier, a climbing guide"

Jakester wrote:

redneck wrote:Precisely what pathogens are you worried about ingesting from melted snow?

You've clearly never been to Camp Muir.

Yes I have. Plenty of fresh unadulterated snow within a short walk of the shelter, at least in early June.

Mountainjeff wrote:

redneck wrote:Precisely what pathogens are you worried about ingesting from melted snow?

I got a pretty gnarly case of giardia from untreated melted snow. It was not fun.

How do you suppose the giardia, which comes from the digestive tracts of animals, got into the snow? Bird droppings?

All of this discussion warrants boiling your water if you can't find a running source, which very may be there per redneck, but was not when I was there. That, however, was in Sept.

MikeTX wrote:i took a semester long water quality course as part of my undergraduate work. i would filter and/or treat ALL water that doesn't come out of a tap, including those crystal clear streams y'all have in the sierra.

I believe, depending on where you dip your bottle or cup, that those crystal clear streams are mostly fine. Take that, you filter, you.

MikeTX wrote:

fatdad wrote:All of this discussion warrants boiling your water if you can't find a running source, which very may be there per redneck, but was not when I was there. That, however, was in Sept.

yeah, boiling works too.

What I really melt was melting snow for water.

MikeTX wrote:my little filter doesn't weigh hardly anything and i don't have to worry about ruining an otherwise great trip.

I'm an obsessive filterer, too, and I agree, it doesn't weigh enough for me to risk a gut parasite. That said, and back to the topic at hand, a filter on most trails is fine, but up at Muir you'd risk freezing and possibly damaging your filter, especially if you've got a ceramic element. Boiling is the better option for camping above snowline on Rainier.

Here's the strategy, tomonmountain:
1) Don't drink from your packed bottles/bags in the car on the way there. That's a common mistake. Arriving at the lot with half-empty bottles just adds time to actually getting on the trail. Leave a bottle or two in your drive-home pack (you have one, right? with clean clothes and handiwipes and so on for the drive back?) and drink from that if you're thirsty on the drive to trailhead.

2) On the way up to Muir, use iodine or drops or whatever non-filter treatment in whichever bottle you empty first. You're not going to cycle through all your containers at the same time, so while you're drinking from one, the other is purifying. Wait time ceases to be an issue. I'm going to advocate for iodine here since the tabs weigh almost nothing, and you just can't mess that up. Plus, if you hate the taste, boo-hoo, it's only a bottle or two, add some drink mix and enjoy the lovely hike. Any way you go, though, treat your water. The park gets a f#ckload of visitors in the warmer months, and not all of them are good about making their bio-breaks far away from running water. Don't chance it. Treat your water. Doesn't matter how, but do it.

3) At camp above snowline, boil. Maybe you'll get lucky and find clean snow, maybe you won't. Maybe it'll be warm enough for the sun to melt all your maybe-clean snow without using your stove, maybe it won't. Don't play what-if on Rainier. The Mountain does not suffer fools. If it's sunny, you can sunmelt before boiling to save some fuel. But since you're in the snow, use the old formula of 1liter of fuel per three people per day. That's old NOLS Cookery math from the 80s (maybe even the 70s). Stove tech hasn't changed that much and a few extra ounces of fuel here or there not only won't kill you, but, should weather delay you -- which, on Rainier, is an EVER-PRESENT DANGER (yes, in caps as a reminder) -- then you're prepared.

Going up Rainier with the bare minimum is fine if you are a) experienced, b) experienced specifically on Rainier, and c) absolutely confident in getting a solid stretch of perfect weather. I can't speak to your a), but you're clearly not b) and no one is ever c). So take enough fuel.

Recap:
1) Don't drink from your pack bottles while you're in the car.
2) Iodine on the trial.
3) Boil at Muir.

Also, to echo rpc's plug, read http://www.summitpost.org/article/507227/so-you-want-to-climb-mt-rainier.html if you haven't already. And if you have, read it again.

bird wrote:

Kai wrote:

bird wrote:How does switching from Iodine to Aqua Mira cut fuel consumption?

I think he was saying that using chemicals instead of boiling everything reduces fuel consumption.

No he was pretty specific saying switching from Iodine to Aqua Pura saved fuel. Curious how

Kai was right. Perhaps I should have worded my statement differently. My advice was to use Aqua Mira in place of iodine. As an added benefit of using chemicals to treat water you don't have to boil everything which reduces fuel consumption.

An additional benefit, at least to me, is that when I usually need water (while hiking or arriving at camp) I'm not looking for something hot to drink. Being able to treat cool water from a stream or melted water means I can have a cool drink in 20 minutes.

Kai wrote:The two part Aqua Mira system is faster, but quite a bit more fiddly: Instructions from the web site.

1) Prior to treatment, clean water container.
2) Place 7 drops AQUAMIRA (Part A) and 7 drops Activator (Part B) in mixing cap. If water is cloudy or tinted use 15 drops of each.
3) Let mixture react 5 minutes.
4) Fill container with 1 quart (1 liter) water. Add contents of cap.
5) Shake to mix. Let stand 15 minutes. If water is very cold, cloudy or tinted let stand 30 minutes.
6) Water is ready for use.


I have found the taste of either one to be almost not noticable, although it is true that the longer you wait, the less after-taste there is.

In practice it's not that fiddly. Squeeze 7 drops of Parts A and B into the cap, swirl it around a bit so it mixes, wait 5 minutes, pour it into your 1 liter water bottle and let sit for 15 minutes. We don't clean out our bottles each time.

As for taste I don't find it has any. You might get a slight chlorine smell off the top of the bottle if you drink it right after the 15 minute wait time but you don't taste it.

MikeTX wrote:

dskoon wrote:

MikeTX wrote:i took a semester long water quality course as part of my undergraduate work. i would filter and/or treat ALL water that doesn't come out of a tap, including those crystal clear streams y'all have in the sierra.

I believe, depending on where you dip your bottle or cup, that those crystal clear streams are mostly fine. Take that, you filter, you.

mostly. but why risk it. my little filter doesn't weigh hardly anything and i don't have to worry about ruining an otherwise great trip.

Yeah, I agree with you, but, think I'm moving more toward the Aqua Mira, etc. solution that Brad has mentioned, for those times I deem it necessary.
Other times, if I think the source is pretty clean, (Yep, a judgement call, I know), then I'm just going to dip my bottle and drink. This is based on my experience, and things I've read regarding giardia, etc. and the lack of it, in the Sierras and Cascades. Studies done by water testers more qualified than I. Doesn't mean I'm drinking from the outlet of a lake where many are camped, etc. etc. And, I will filter, or purify with the drops, if I feel it's necessary. I'm just getting tired of lugging a filter around, and find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.
Knock on wood, nothing's got me yet!

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

But that's where I reside!
Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

No, I'm the one arguing that snow found at 10,000 feet on the side of Rainier doesn't need to be treated.

I also drink straight out of springs and will drink straight out of a stream if I think I am pretty close to its source.

But I don't know how a parasite like giardia can get into surface snow at 10,000 feet.

MikeTX wrote:

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

But that's where I reside!
Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

don, there don't necessarily need to be a lot of campers near a water source for there to be a risk of water-borne pathogens. other animal feces carry pathogens just as well. many people take the risk of drinking water from "pretty clean sources" all the time and don't get sick, but some people do get sick. for me, i would just as soon treat my water somehow (filter, chemical or boil) and sleep better knowing that I've reduced at least one factor that could ruin my trip.

I know, I know. . . but, do you think many animals shit in the water? Perhaps near it, but. . .
Anyway, interesting topic, as always when this subject comes up.
Personal choice, definitely. Couple of my friends who have scientific backgrounds, think I'm crazy when I drink from a couple of streams when we're hiking out in the gorge. Mind you, I said a couple; I don't drink willy Nelly from every water source I see. Haven't been sick yet. . . Probably will continue to do so until I get sick, if ever.

What about these two iconic figures from the Northwest, Ira Spring and Harvey Manning. Co Wrote and photographed many a guidebook here in the PNW, spanning a few decades. Hiked damn near every summer, literally from one end of the Cascades to the other, and some in the Sierra as well. Took familial generations back there with them. Read in one of their books that he considered it sacrilegious to filter mountain water. (I don't know all of his details, maybe he boiled it sometimes if he felt it necessary). Romantic, that sacrilegious notion, I know, but he didn't really mention himself or others getting sick. Again, this from a guy who hiked everywhere in the Cascades. Just chance that he didn't get sick?
What about another icon, Fred Beckey? Do you think he carried a filter with him? Doubtful.
What about ol' Mr. Muir? He seems to have survived ok, along with all those other early Sierra pioneer climbers and explorers. Presumably there were plenty of animals in the mountains back then, probably more so than now. . .

Everyone evaluates the risks and makes their own decision.
Personally, I think filtering is a mix of marketing and the fear factor that runs rampant through this country. . . (whew, really opening up the ol' Pandora's box now!).
Should one be careful about their water in the backcountry? Yes, but how careful becomes just a personal decision, like everything else.
Again, you all will probably have the last laugh when I"m laid-low with a bad case of the shits.
But, I have read some stuff, that suggests the risk of getting giardia is rather low, at least in the Cascades and Sierra. This, again, from people more qualified than I, who've gone back there and tested the water in the summer. One report I was reading even suggested that most who contract giardia get it from their own unsanitary practices before/while eating.
There ya go. The box is now open!

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:

redneck wrote:

dskoon wrote:find it almost ridiculous to be filtering water coming from what I think, are pretty clean sources.

Yeah, like higher up in the stratosphere.

Seriously, you think all water is contaminated?

No, I'm the one arguing that snow found at 10,000 feet on the side of Rainier doesn't need to be treated.

I also drink straight out of springs and will drink straight out of a stream if I think I am pretty close to its source.

But I don't know how a parasite like giardia can get into surface snow at 10,000 feet.

Ah, ok, my misinterpretation of your scarcasm.
Sounds like your drinking habits in the backcountry, are similar to mine.
Me, I've drank from the sparkling streams(unflitered!), at the toe of some of those glaciers, and snowfields, down on the somewhat lower flanks of Rainier. Didn't get sick. . . Guess those animals didn't shit in the waters I drank from. . . Or, I'm just lucky.