SpazzyMcgee wrote:

fatdad wrote:I don't have a problem with folks dangling their secrets projects or areas in view of the general public. If you've discovered some hidden jewel, enjoy it. You found it. If others want to get out there and explore and find their own "discoveries", have at. Isn't that a big part of what our sport is about?

You are correct, but then why go on a forum like this which is designed to help people locate and talk about places to climb?

because some climbers can still cross their own tees and dot their own eyes... some are actually looking for an adventure, everytime... seems as though most climbers are just after instant gratification and are not willing to put in the time and effort to become intimately aquainted with their resource...

and in regards to Mixed routes in the Sierra, it aint rocket science! just open zee eyez and you vill seeeee...

SpazzyMcgee wrote:

fatdad wrote:I don't have a problem with folks dangling their secrets projects or areas in view of the general public. If you've discovered some hidden jewel, enjoy it. You found it. If others want to get out there and explore and find their own "discoveries", have at. Isn't that a big part of what our sport is about?

You are correct, but then why go on a forum like this which is designed to help people locate and talk about places to climb?

On a similar but slightly different note from x15x15: to motivate people to get out there and get 'er done! I remember talking with a guy named Dwight Brooks about a trip to Borneo he took with John Long. I asked him, "why Borneo?" He gave the best and simplest possible answer: "Adventure!"

Even if you can't get out there as much as you like (which pretty much describes me), it's the promise of getting out there and finding jewels or exploring stuff I've always heard or read about that keeps the fire lit.

I spend a huge portion of my time thinking about climbing, researching climbs, and actually climbing. I've been in CA for over a year now and I had no idea that Cardinal Pinnacle has an appealing winter alpine route. But now I do...because someone posted it here. That is useful information to me and why I come on these forums. I don't have time to go out hiking all over the Sierras looking for stuff to climb. When I have time off, I want to get on something good. Thus, it helps to have information on what's good and what the current conditions may be. Dangling a carrot in front of my face...telling me there's good stuff out there and posting random photos...doesn't help me a bit. I know there's good stuff out there, so why make posts that contribute nothing to the discussion?

x15x15 wrote:

SpazzyMcgee wrote:

fatdad wrote:I don't have a problem with folks dangling their secrets projects or areas in view of the general public. If you've discovered some hidden jewel, enjoy it. You found it. If others want to get out there and explore and find their own "discoveries", have at. Isn't that a big part of what our sport is about?

You are correct, but then why go on a forum like this which is designed to help people locate and talk about places to climb?

because some climbers can still cross their own tees and dot their own eyes... some are actually looking for an adventure, everytime... seems as though most climbers are just after instant gratification and are not willing to put in the time and effort to become intimately aquainted with their resource...

and in regards to Mixed routes in the Sierra, it aint rocket science! just open zee eyez and you vill seeeee...

I totally agree, and I wish I could live such a world where I could snap my fingers and be at a trailhead in the Sierras at a moments notice. I would cut down on ten hours RT driving time, about $90 in gas, and camping or motel costs. If this were the case I could explore everywhere I could possibly want all the time, and still have the money to pay for gear and supplies.

Unfortunately for (most of) us the real world consists of a 9-5 job, family, spouses, and bills to pay. While we wish we were climbing all the time and exploring and becoming acquainted with the areas most of us would rather be in all day, the real world forces us not to. It sucks ass. The few opportunities we have to actually participate in our favorite activities are crammed into a few short days or weeks spread out through the year, and are therefore even more precious. As for the OP, there is scarcely free time to spend going to an entirely new place searching for good routes without any beta. This is why summitpost exists...it helps people locate trips/routes via information sharing they want to do while they are trapped at home. What an awesome resource!

Of course, this resource loses 100% of its value if no one actually shares information. And for those who have secret places they don't want to divulge, you're entirely within your right not to divulge them. But just keep in mind that goes against this entire site's reason for existing. If you come on here and essentially say "I know great places to go, and I've been there, but I won't tell you," you're pretty much just inflating the ego. That was cool to do when I was eleven. I don't think anyone on this board is eleven anymore.

but you see, many of us DO have 9-5 jobs and STILL want that adventure. we even have spouses, twins, and a bunch of bills to pay. and in all honesty, i can't believe climbers can't see what is so obvious... drive north on the 395, look to your left out of the window, its a start at least...

oh nooooooooo, are reconnaissance trips a thing of the past? too bad...

i don't know, most eleven year olds want you to cross their T and dot their eye for them. sounds like this board is full of em...

x15x15 wrote:but you see, many of us DO have 9-5 jobs and STILL want that adventure. we even have spouses, twins, and a bunch of bills to pay. and in all honesty, i can't believe climbers can't see what is so obvious... drive north on the 395, look to your left out of the window, its a start at least...

oh nooooooooo, are reconnaissance trips a thing of the past? too bad...

i don't know, most eleven year olds want you to cross their T and dot their eye for them. sounds like this board is full of em...

Great. Good for you. The operative word in your statement was "some." My guess is the OP wasn't included in your statement. You and the Chief, however, are included in the "some" that come on internet forums and brag about all the cool places they've been without sharing. Thanks, you make the web (and this site) such a better place.

x15x15 wrote:oh nooooooooo, are reconnaissance trips a thing of the past? too bad...

i only have 1,440 weekends of good climbing left in my life and i need to make the most of it. cavemen reconnaissance. cubical men do research, online.

SpazzyMcgee wrote:Great. Good for you. The operative word in your statement was "some." My guess is the OP wasn't included in your statement. You and the Chief, however, are included in the "some" that come on internet forums and brag about all the cool places they've been without sharing. Thanks, you make the web (and this site) such a better place.

Now you've done it x15x15!

We have now been put into the same boat of internet assholism.

Hey, at least we have ONE thing in common!!!!!



Get off your asses and find em as x15x15 and I have over the decades.

They really aren't that difficult to find and far more obvious than most think if you only start thinking outside the proverbial Guide Book and "everything is marked for ya in the Gym" box..... damn!


AND!!! Spazzy, by the looks of your profile, your hypocrisy shines....ZERO contributions. But that is expected on the internet and as x15 noted, this new entitled climbing society in general. Wanting someone to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's" for ya.

**** ALOIS! Respect goes both ways! You have a beef with anyone (ME) that uses your precious pic's or any beta, w/o your prior permission, please give them the courtesy of a PM first prior to showing your, what ever on the thread.... what a concept! But, that as well is expected.

Gotta love it, I tell ya!

Chief, courtesy to others (not just to me or to you) on SP is the issue here. Always was and always will be. You know, treat people nicely, we are all on this SP for the same reason, or something like that. But you will never understand the concept. We all have a choice in how to respond to people who consistently behave in ugly way. My way is to ask you to be a better person, to behave like the experienced older statesman of our sport and to be an asset to those, who might need help on this web site and in this activity we all love. This has very little to do with me or those on this post and a lot to do with you. Think about it a little. Alois.

The Chief wrote:

SpazzyMcgee wrote:Great. Good for you. The operative word in your statement was "some." My guess is the OP wasn't included in your statement. You and the Chief, however, are included in the "some" that come on internet forums and brag about all the cool places they've been without sharing. Thanks, you make the web (and this site) such a better place.

AND!!! Spazzy, by the looks of your profile, your hypocrisy shines....ZERO contributions. But that is expected on the internet and as x15 noted, this new entitled climbing society in general. Wanting someone to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's" for ya.

The difference between you and me is that if I could contribute, particularly some good mixed routes, I would be happy to.

Just a few points... both sides here have plenty of comments that I think are valid.

This website, and these forums (at least the regional boards) are mostly about sharing information with others. If you never do that, then why are you here?

You have the copyright to an image you take. You need not file for a copyright.

In all countries that are members of the Berne Convention [this includes the US], copyright is automatic and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium, the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.

Hotlinking to someone's else's photo is NOT a violation of that copyright (as proven in Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc.). If you don't like it, delete the source. Don't complain to Chief for showing your photo. If he links to it, rather than copies it, to bad for you.

Chief provides a lot of information to members of this site, be it conditions, gear recommendations, camping locations, or more specific route information. True sometimes he drops clues rather than full info, but there are many people just browsing this site, it is sometimes good to help a limited number, rather than all. Personally, sometimes I would rather he be more open on a regular basis, and sometimes he is.

But as an example, more than once I have seen threads started by people looking for good free camping locations. Sometimes I send them a PM rather than post it. I have no issue with 1 or 2 or a dozen folks knowing about a spot, its not my land, but don't really feel like posting all of them on the internet for all to see.

If you see a photo that is an unknown area for you, you can often figure it out by following the hotlink and reading the photo description. If that doesn't work, try sending the person a PM, I bet they would tell you what you want to know. If they don't, well then they really are just being a jerk.

What we need in addition to the "thank you" button is also an "a-hole" button...

Can we get back on topic? If you have nothing to contribute, because you either don't know any mixed routes or because you don't what to share them, then don't post here. What's the point of littering the thread?

The only true mixed routes (as in steep ice and rock) in Sierra I know of are in LVC... For alpine routes that combine ice, rock and snow (and may not be that steep) I would suggest the Northeast couloir on Thunderbolt, Central on Split and couloirs on Mendel. With all of them there is no way of knowing if they are in other than going and seeing for yourself. For something with lower time commitment for Bay Area working crowd, check out Dug's route on Round Top. All these would be fall climbs, not winter climbs.

Perhaps it is time for a California culture lesson for those who are new to the region or, dare I say, have made the pilgrimage to the center of the universe. Much of this lesson also applies to those who think everything should be handed to them via an internet forum.

This is in Alaska, and there is AWESOME mixed climbing to riders left. Wouldn't have known, but I took my snowboard up there and learned something. Brady photo


In California, we are a very proactive, exploratory type of people (for the most part, yes I am generalizing a bit so forgive me when I do). We ask questions and seek answers. Thus we have many many many excellent institutes of higher education and research (e.g. Caltech, Yosemite Valley, UCSF, Mavericks, Scripps, Squaw Valley, etc). We realize that before the 30 or so million of us a colossal amount of world class fun exists in the natural landscape in virtually every medium that could be desired. We tend to be humble and appreciate the burliness of those historical figures who paved the way back in the day as they pushed the envelope of physical and psychological possibilities.

Good mixed potential here. I went down, but there is a possibility to go up. Here, and in the next 10^3 drainages north, and south


Given the glorious provisions of land, sun, and opportunity, we don't really care about being the first or 100th to do something, we care about doing it FOR OURSELF. As a result, many times an accomplishment has been realized by a person and then they have just floated back into the mist of California, off to the next idea that hopes to once again "redline the fun meter" (to quote the late great Alan Bard). Because we don't expect to be the first with such an idea, often the feat is only known by the one doing it and the great silent observers made up of granite, sand, redwood, pine, whatever, and suffice to say, little history about many feats is kept. The basic premise for such is this, "I can't be that cool or clever to think that this is a good idea, someone else must have come up here 20 years ago to do the same thing, and someone else will probably come back soon again, and fun will be had by all, totally independent of the fact that it may or may not have happened before." In short, little is written or spoken of, because there are and have been a lot of cool people in California and since" we stand on the shoulders of giants" (Newton), it is best to remain humble and not claim anything. And as such, away goes the possibility that others will know, they are left to find out for themselves.

So what does this have to do with difficulty in finding information about mixed routes?



Well, personally, I gained a lot of inspiration reading about the fact that lots of crazy stuff exist, and built a foundation of knowledge by spending hours pouring over maps, taking long ski tours up random valleys, thinking, reading books, and visualizing conditions necessary for whatever activity to be maximized. Sure, trolling about on forums and googling brought up marginal information, but if nothing else, the dearth of information only added to mystery and the pure desire to go out and get it myself!

Like, duh, its out there. Go get it! Rowell route end of winter, very nice! awesome descent next door...


"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious" (Einstein). All true art (the turns pasted on a hanging snowfield, the magical moves over frozen water through weaknesses) and science (what physical conditions allow us to enter these environs and accomplish our goals?) are the result of pursuit of the mysterious.

I like art class!!!!! Midterm in California, near a VERY famous group of peaks. Wheres that map...


How does it make me 11 years old to tell you there is great stuff out there and that you should go try out and enjoy finding it, to be adventurous for a change? I think the roles are flipped...maturity can only be gained by experience. Don't think Lewis and Clark had a map...or von Humboldt...or Marco Polo...the list goes on

Hey look mixed climbing! You can see the road from here!


How is there any adventure or mystery in giving someone the exact lat/lon (perhaps you prefer UTM?) of every climb out there? Are you so focused on your achievements that you throw the whole process of the search out the window? Isn't it much more fun to wander about, and go HOLY CRAP! LOOK AT THAT! around every bend in the valley and with each passing buttress or cirque. Don't let your path be bounded by what others have done. Find something, get stoked on it, and give it a whirl! It is from this process that we learn the most, and isn't playing about on Earth's beautiful surface done with the utmost goal of learning? Jah forbid it is to paste pictures on Facebook or just to tell someone else about how cool you are (trust me, they probably don't care as long as you are having fun, and it is quite possible that they have pushed the limits in whatever endeavor they choose to enjoy).

In France, but still mixin it up? Jean-Marc Boivin was first to ski this line. In France their records are a little better


So. Here's what you do. Realize that there is a lot out there. Be excited to go explore it. Oh, you only have so much time? Be thankful that you are able to do ANYTHING you want, that you have the FREEDOM to even make choices. Take advantage of every possible second to learn about our wonderful Earth and to enjoy the activities that can be performed.

Mixed skiing in the shadow of the Sierra Aiguilles


Love the mystery.


Edit to add photos

The following pics (MINE) have numerous winter "MIXED" lines (trust me) and tons of potential for
many many many more on them that are in fact MIXED. Every single one of em is north facing...hint!
And I am not talking about the obvious docu'd couloir routes either.

Go out and get on em....




















And the list can continue for pages!


Once again, just because they are not in a G-Damn Guide Book, don't mean they don't exist.
I and many others around here where I reside have done many an FA in the past 3-4 decades, both in Summer and in Winter. Most if not all of us aren't worried about the fame and ego to go reporting everything we do. We savior the experience and leave it at that. For those that do not understand nor accept that philosophy, oh fking well! It is our right and damn previ to do so. No one is obligated to report shit to anyone.

Oh, just cause some claimed God Almighty states it aint so, well, it is can and be so. Cus they are there and many hundreds more are out there to be had! That is how I and a handful or two have found em....exploring! A little secret deal I was let onto back in the 70's, if the true angle of any north facing wall/gully etc is more than 75degs, and they are covered in snow in the winter, in most of them cases, the snow is actually clinging onto ice of one form or another underneath that light covering of snow. Fact. Anyone that knows anything about AVY Science will know that.

Most of the pics I have for many of my Winter accomplishes are in boxes packed away and I am not about to scan em all to appease some here to verify the validity of my claims. Go out there and prove me wrong. Thing is, you won't.... either go out nor if you in fact do go out, will you prove me wrong.You will in fact shit your pants in total amazement.

End of story.

Alois, next time be "NICE" and PM me if ya got any beef with any thing I post that you do not wish posted. Thank You!


Oh yeah, most "Winter Routes" on this Classic Hill are and have been all considered "Mixed" for decades. Food for thought....

The Chief wrote:
**** ALOIS! Respect goes both ways! You have a beef with anyone (ME) that uses your precious pic's or any beta, w/o your prior permission, please give them the courtesy of a PM first prior to showing your, what ever on the thread.... what a concept! But, that as well is expected.

Gotta love it, I tell ya!

Just for the record, Alois asked me for permission to use a photo, just like other SPers do on occasion, and as some filmmakers, magazine authors, and photojournalists have done on this site and others with my photos. Just because you're not making professional publications with the photos doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to be professional about using the material. And I appreciate the courtesy.

As for this whole 'recon climb' and adventuring. Sure, I love to occasionally go out and explore and I might pick appealing lines from maps & photos, research them, and try them out. This is much easier when living in a place like, say, Salt Lake City or Bishop, but otherwise it is a pretty large effort if you don't already know about the conditions or are limited in your time to get out or wait for conditions. And sometimes I just want to get out and climb on something more certain - perhaps as practice for those real 'adventure' routes since they involve so much more risk and uncertainty. If I don't want the adventure spoiled, then I don't look it up on SP or ask about it - it's that easy. I don't understand people who spend time posting on this site and then complain about people who 'give too much away'. The less you inform others about your experience, the more you are just bragging. And the more adventure you want in a 'developed' range, the less you should consult others!

IMO, saying that everyone should be held to the standard of 'go out, see for yourself, and just do it' all the time is an elitist attitude of locals and really good climbers who feel that just because they can and want to, everyone else should as well.