Disappointed to say the least....

by **The Chief** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:00 am

Damn!

I thought I was bad! And I do it all for fun.

BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM... beat, beat, beat that decaying rotting dead horse.

Personally, considering all the data inputs and folks, worldwide, that are accessing SP on a regular basis, I think that Matt is doing an outstanding job at keeping it running.

BFD that the site has become a little slow, builds character and patience.

Keep up the great efforts and work Matt. And thanks for all the hard dedicated work that you have done for us all over the years here at SP..... FOR FREE!

by **SoCalHiker** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:08 am

lcarreau wrote:I'm NOT complaining, but the other day it took me exactly 23.6 seconds to vote on one of Dow's
pictures.

I still think it is a bit unfair to beat down on Dow regardless of the ultimate motives of his post. I agree things could have possible been said in a different tone, but matter of fact is that the site runs slower than some months ago. That is an important problem to convey to Matt, who is the only one who can do something about it. And Matt knows about it and will do his best to improve the issue. It might not be as fast as some people want - for that matter I also want it to be faster yesterday - but it will eventually.

To reiterate Larry's point. I used to vote on many photos before but I simply don't have the patience recently because it also often times (not always) takes a seemingly endless time to cast a vote.

The following user would like to thank SoCalHiker for this post
lcarreau

by **chugach mtn boy** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:12 am

mrchad9 wrote:Surely we don't want him taking it out on his wife or GF right?

Lord no. With all that pent up hostility, we'd have another friggin' OJ on our hands. :shock:

Bad idea on my part.

by **Marmaduke** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:16 am

Has Dow been considered for a "position" with SP? I don't know if he would be interested or not. But I don't agree with Chugach that he always has contempt for everyone. Normally Dow is constructive as is The Chief. I think when you are so accomplished you see things differently. That doesn't equate to being negative. Dow's insights are valuable and more of them should be considered to further make SP a better site.

The following user would like to thank Marmaduke for this post
lcarreau

by **Dow Williams** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:42 am

Montana Matt wrote:
Chris wrote:Yeah, did 4 last night @ -13F... have to keep the streak alive. Wasn't too bad except my eyes kept freezing open. Have a great run!! 55 sounds awesome... a little jealous here.

Yeah, I knew that you were streaking, so I wondered if you kept it alive despite the insanely cold temperatures. I should have known that you would

Dow Williams wrote:Who is responsible for fixing the site if you, as minority owner, are not? I find that a bit alarming. Thanks for the heads up.

I suppose I could have been a bit more wordy there. I meant to say that no, I don't feel like I'm 100% responsible for fixing problems on SP and the future of the site. But I am, at least, somewhat responsible given that I have some stake in SP.
Dow Williams wrote:So we are clear, I would believe it quite fool hardy of you to maintain this site for free. If you paid $$$ for your minority stake or were given it in exchange for maintaining the site, then it is not free of course. You could get paid for this kind of Internet maintenance work if you are good at and want to get paid. Like tomorrow. We do have paid advertisers paying for the opportunity to sell products to folks perusing the the contributors beta on summitpost. All the contributors ask in return is that issues be fixed in a timely manner, not overnight, just not six months either.

What you say is right and I'm sorry that I've not been able to fix these issues in a timely manner, though I have spent many hours addressing them. And I do get paid by other people for whom I contract to do web work and that's why SP often takes a back burner to that work for which I get paid. My stake in SP is small enough that I don't really see a return on time invested month-to-month no matter how many hours I spend working on it. Therefore, my priority is to get work that pays hourly so I can pay the bills. I work on SP as I find the time. However, I've lately found myself stressing about the slowness of the site so often that I need to fix it just to get this monkey off my back, so to speak.
Dow Williams wrote:You seem to attempt to imply I might have ulterior motives. I believe you might struggle to find one.

I don't think you have any ulterior motives and I'm not sure where I implied that. My main implication was that your posts come across as condescending and abrasive, and not that you have ulterior motives for doing so.
Dow Williams wrote:You appear bothered by the "necessity" of a thread started by me, a serious climbing contributor who has spent almost zero time in the forums discussing such matters. I haev laid off all this time, showed incredible patience. Your comment deserved much more sarcasm then I let fly in my opinion.

Admittedly I'm tired of hearing complaints about the chat software and the slowness of the site. And I realized after my initial response that perhaps since you spend relatively little time on the forums, you've not seen the numerous posts with regards to those two problems that I have read many, many times. I apologize for not replying more appropriately to your initial post.
Dow Williams wrote:I do not consider you a peon nor did I imply such.

I misinterpreted your text then because it certainly felt like it when reading your posts.
Dow Williams wrote:But I damn well need to know if this is the total of the effort that is going into SP, chat rooms, games, etc, while it cost me more time to contribute each passing day. Like I said before, I imagine my time investment actually rivals yours.

I'm sure you spend many more hours contributing to SP most months than I do working on bug fixes, new features, etc. (though some months I do spend A LOT of time working on SP). But so you know, I will continue to work on fixing the slowness issues that SP has been having. There are a few other things I want to try that I think will alleviate some of the server load and speed up the site. I'll probably not be able to spend much time on it until next week though.

I appreciate your latest response and effort to see through to my concerns Matt. Part of the frustration is that I would pay to have the contribution side done right, so to hear that you don't have the funds (=need to work on other paid by the hour jobs) and time to keep it running as smooth as you or I would expect.... is a bit discerning. I spend most of my time outdoors as you know and assumed you guys had it under control and did not need any help. And you are right, I don't catch much of the forums any more.

Much of our beta does run to the top of searches, mine does anyway. From that perspective, lets acknowledge that SP has been a success in the past. SP's beta format from its origin was exceptional and still has potential despite lack of attention. But when I am sharing links on rock or ice with folks and they can't get them open, navigated or printed in a timely manner it does reflect badly back on us, the contributors. If we were as fast as we were in 2005, I would be a happy camper. But to go backwards in today's Internet world is usually, not always, but usually the start of death for a site like this. If you don't think you can get this site and thus your time paid for, I will be the first to agree you should let it run aground. Every mans/womans family and personal bills should be his/her first priority. Just feeling you out to see if that is where it is headed.

Again, thanks for your in depth response, you need not invest more time responding to me, as you have answered everything in depth and quite honest in my opinion. You are more than welcome to hang out in this thread with the cowardly pnp crowed drifting in or nuke it completely if you wish. I believe I have full scope of where you are at and felt every member who invested time in the site was entitled to view the correspondence. Good Luck with it and thanks again for your time.

The following user would like to thank Dow Williams for this post
chugach mtn boy

by **Kiefer** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:43 am

Not really sure what side to jump on or who's opinion to take ta heart on this, but seriously....
how do games and add-on's add to the value of a mountaineering website (wikisite)?

Isn't this why we have Wastebook, Twitter, Myspace etc? Regardless of the number of people actually asking for these
things, as an admin, in charge of a climbing website, don't you find it even a little bit odd that you're implementing social-networking
link/tools/whatever on a (gasp!) climbing website?

You're an active outdoor enthusiast like the rest of us, Matt. Seriously, why all the 'red herrings'?
Do you think all the new 'chrome' is adding to the slowness of the site recently? Forgive me b/c I'm completely ignorant on most
of the coding and computer stuff ya guys do to keep the site up and running.
A lot of the new changes would be easier to swallow if everyone knew the reasons behind all the new changes. You have to admit, by not
relenting this information, it does create a lot of suspicion.

Why not delete everything and keep JUST the talkroom feature? It's probably the most popular anyway.
Sure people banter in there but it does serve a function of meet & greet type stuff, planning, gear talk, what-have-you.

I haven't seen it addressed or mentioned, but I don't think anyone on this site actually wishes to attack you personally with all these changes.
The work and time you commit to this site go without say. And you probably should be paid for all you do...unquestionably.
Hell, if it wasn't for the hard work you guys (elves) commit to this site, we wouldn't even be arguing about this shite!

So I have to ask, does this preclude a change of focus for Summitpost?
I'm inclined to say no because with all the changes, streamlining, feedback and work that Bob has been doing since being an elf, the site has gotten better and
retained a stronger sense of itself.
So for some of us, these new changes are kind of, well, insulting (Please DON'T take that personally, Matt).
And that's NOT the kind of reaction that anyone wants.
That's my .02¢

BTW: What about adding a forum devoted to JUST classifieds and selling gear?

The following user would like to thank Kiefer for this post
lcarreau

by **Josh Lewis** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:52 am

Now this is just an idea, what if a test version of sp were created... I dunno something like summitpost.org/test which with my web development I create a test site so that when I add new features I make sure it does not come in conflict with others as well as performance. So I think we need to establish this, Does the chat actually slow down the site? If not, then Matt could not be held accountable on that end. So what if the chat were temporarily disabled as a test to see if that would help things. If I'm not mistaken Arrowchat is integrated into phpbb3 which is integrated into sp which it's because of the forums that chat is possible (I could be wrong, just a theory).

by **mrchad9** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:27 am

Kiefer Thomas wrote:I haven't seen it addressed or mentioned, but I don't think anyone on this site actually wishes to attack you personally with all these changes.
The work and time you commit to this site go without say. And you probably should be paid for all you do...unquestionably.

+1

Matt don't take shit personally no matter what the tone of the post. As you might or might not remember my job is somewhat analogous to yours even though I don't know jack about programming. When things don't work people are going to voice it. I hear it all the time in my job, sometimes it is over something I can control/affect and sometimes it isn't... but when they are bitching at me I realize they (sometimes) have a valid reason for doing so (sometimes it is user error).

Every email I get starts off with how the software is fucked up doing something or another, not "can you show me how to correctly do this or that?" It's just the way it is.

Montana Matt wrote:
Kiefer Thomas wrote:how do games and add-on's add to the value of a mountaineering website (wikisite)?

By allowing people to communicate more efficiently and effectively.

FARMVILLE MATT!!! PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT FARMVILLE AND HELICOPTER GAMES!!!

If chat isn't slowing the site down then folks are fine with it. But everyone is not convinced of that yet.

(don't take it personally!)

by **Bob Sihler** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:50 pm

Kiefer Thomas wrote:BTW: What about adding a forum devoted to JUST classifieds and selling gear?

This is something I can easily do if there is member interest. Matt has bigger and harder tasks to see to about this site. Perhaps we can have a thread asking for member input about how to define and operate the forum. My main concern would be finding the right line between commercial posts and members selling gear.

I will be away most of the day today, but I can start a thread later unless someone else does first.

by **The Chief** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:40 pm

chugach mtn boy wrote:
Dow Williams wrote:Well the disingenuous pats will be forth coming as I predicted whether you care for them or not, just the nature of this site. But as I also said, I know you know better. I consider you a more sincere individual than some of these Internet personalities. I do not consider you a peon nor did I imply such. But I damn well need to know if this is the total of the effort that is going into SP, chat rooms, games, etc, while it cost me more time to contribute each passing day. Like I said before, I imagine my time investment actually rivals yours.

The pats are not disingenuous, Dow. There are many of us who use this site who realize that all of the people involved in running it are, for all practical purposes, volunteers. Some of us have real, responsible jobs and roles in our communities in which we have learned how to treat volunteers. Your approach is not it.

The seething hostility and contempt for just about everybody that comes through in your posts is really pretty breathtaking. Maybe you don't see it. If not, have your wife or GF or somebody read over your shoulder before you push submit.

With that said, you contribute an impressive amount to this site. But it seems to me that you are better compensated for that than just about any other contributor, because for you, the exposure you get from SP is good for business--or for whatever it is you seek from your profession as a "full time climber." It is not a labor of love for you. SP frees you from self-promotion by other means. As you say on your website:
"I no longer update this site on a regular basis. Rather I encourage you to visit my
work on summitpost.org ...."

Because SP is important to you professionally, it is understandable that you care quite a bit about how it is run. That's fine. But there may be more effective ways to communicate your concerns.

Seems notorious in this society that when one actually utilizes something that is free for so long to promote themselves, they become complacent in being ever so grateful for such a vehicle. This truly shows in this case as it clearly appears that they become demanding and very ungrateful for the sacrifices that others make in order to keep that well used engine running. All for free.

The OP is a perfect example of what happens when climbing becomes a "profession" and is no longer something that someone does just for the love of it.

The following user would like to thank The Chief for this post
dadndave

by **John Duffield** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:27 pm

knoback wrote: you have to admit, his route pages are kind of the benchmark.

Yup + 1

Dows Pages are the best!!

by **Josh Lewis** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:24 pm

Kiefer Thomas wrote:BTW: What about adding a forum devoted to JUST classifieds and selling gear?

You mean there isn't?

I like the idea, but isn't that what the gear section is partly for?

Post climbing gear-related questions, offer advice. An ideal section for classifieds, as well.

I'm assuming where talking about a section dedicated to selling gear rather than having mixed discussion.

Also mbpost if I'm not misaken is on the same sever... right? And it's almost instant speed with posting things.

by **mvs** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:53 pm

I thought I'd see what all the fuss is about with the games. I gotta say Dragon Slayer and Helicopter are super for a quick 1 minute brain break...replacing Minesweeper for me.

And yes I am a real mountaineer, amazingly I'm interested in routes *AND* internet distraction! Real purists would say all of us here are doing the latter anyway.

I'd be curious to see a perf benchmark of SP database queries from 1,2,3 years ago. Mat's hunch about the cause is likely on the mark. If we saw those queries slow down along with increasing db size over time we'd have a nice reassurance of what is going on. Additionally, it would be cool to see the same queries with end-to-end time through the client layer. We could detect if the slowdown is linear with increasing db size or possibly worse. That would point to any inefficient code segments. My worry is what if the db is fully indexed in all the right ways...what structural changes can be made there that offer anything close to a 2x, 3x improvement? And I'm hoping there is a good separation API between the db queries and the UI code, otherwise Matt is in for a week of all-nighters (with time he doesn't have!).

Anyway, good luck Matt and I support your efforts. I'm not being disingenuous, though I'm surprised to find I need to say that.

by **lcarreau** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:43 pm

I'll be glad when the ship is running at FULL speed! It's ALL Captain Kirk's fault, for crying out LOUD !!!

Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Re: Disappointed to say the least....

Who is online