Here's the shot I was thinking of. Attitude is everything.

fatdad wrote:Chief,
You beat me to the Don Whillans reference. Annapurna South Face was the first mountaineering book I ever bought and I remember it was the pudgy Whillans who was one of the only two who summitted. I know there's a picture out there of him hiking in to a climb in the Himalaya, wearing a cheap suitcase and an umbrella threaded thru the shoulder staps. He's shirtless and he's got a nice beer belly. He looks like a lost tourist. But man could that dude climb. Probably not the best example for all of us to emulate though. That guy was just a pure climber, a natural.

The other thing that I always noticed about Whillans is how many of his partners complained about how often he avoided work (such as building tent sites, cooking, breaking trail, hauling loads, etc.) but was then fresh when it came time to summit.

mconnell wrote:The other thing that I always noticed about Whillans is how many of his partners complained about how often he avoided work (such as building tent sites, cooking, breaking trail, hauling loads, etc.) but was then fresh when it came time to summit.

ODD...

"Don, practical without a romantic dream in his head. Mountains for Don were a job of hard work. That he did. He was constantly the oxen of the team. Especially here on Annapurna."
Dougal Haston "In High Places"

"My best of friends and life long partner, Don Whillans, could and was always be counted on to do the work that no one else wanted. Always the first to take the lead with heavy loads, build a site when all were to tired to stand and set the tent. Mick Burke once yelled out loud to Whillans at 24,000' on SouthFace of Annapurna to stop and come in and have a cup of warm tea before he died of a heart attack while setting up the 2nd and 3rd RAFMA's."
Chris Bonington "The Mountianeer"

"Whillans had not ever one lazy bone in his body. The man was mule of mules when in the heights. He was known for hauling loads that could not be matched. Then, setting up camp while others were struggling to even stand."
Doug Scott "Himalayan Climber: A Lifetime's Quest to the World's Greater Ranges"

The Chief wrote:

mconnell wrote:The other thing that I always noticed about Whillans is how many of his partners complained about how often he avoided work (such as building tent sites, cooking, breaking trail, hauling loads, etc.) but was then fresh when it came time to summit.

ODD...

"Don, practical without a romantic dream in his head. Mountains for Don were a job of hard work. That he did. He was constantly the oxen of the team. Especially here on Annapurna."
Dougal Haston "In High Places"

"My best of friends and life long partner, Don Whillans, could and was always be counted on to do the work that no one else wanted. Always the first to take the lead with heavy loads, build a site when all were to tired to stand and set the tent. Mick Burke once yelled out loud to Whillans at 24,000' on SouthFace of Annapurna to stop and come in and have a cup of warm tea before he died of a heart attack while setting up the 2nd and 3rd RAFMA's."
Chris Bonington "The Mountianeer"

"Whillans had not ever one lazy bone in his body. The man was mule of mules when in the heights. He was known for hauling loads that could not be matched. Then, setting up camp while others were struggling to even stand."
Doug Scott "Himalayan Climber: A Lifetime's Quest to the World's Greater Ranges"

Sounds like the kind of man I would like to emulate(wouldn't we all).

Nice to know that not all good mountaineers are built like marathon runners, gives me a bit of hope, as I am anything but skinny!

TimB wrote:Sounds like the kind of man I would like to emulate(wouldn't we all).

Nice to know that not all good mountaineers are built like marathon runners, gives me a bit of hope, as I am anything but skinny!

Since I seem incapable of inserting images in my posts, I thought I'd just include a link to the Don Whillans photo I was thinking of: http://media.photobucket.com/image/%252 ... lans81.jpg

Now there's a physique to emulate.

So who were you climbing with? If your partners were locals that would explain a great deal in itself. Anyone new to climbing has basic fears and doubts that fade only with experience. This added to the fact you're far from home in a different country, you are trying to manage an overdose of uncertainty in a short period of time. Stress and depression are other factors to consider, many athletes experience stress and depression cycles and these are hard to detect by oneself. Stress leads to poor performance, a sense of failure to depression and back to stress.

As with all things, I've learned (the hard way of course) particularly with climbing it's best to achieve experience and confidence gradually. All the training in the world will never substitute these two things. That's why climbing we meet people of all ages and fitness levels who surprise us. In the end, what truly makes a better climber is the experience you just had.

Here ya go Fatdad...

Don't forget legend Jeff Lowe ... not portly, but he looked more like an accountant.

Speeding in the mountains is a lot like speeding on the freeways. You can put in a lot of effort to change lanes, keep your eyes out for cops, go 85 for most of it, but when it's all said and done, you pull into the driveway maybe 5-10 minutes earlier then your grandma who left at the same time and went 55 the whole time. If you're going at a pace that will allow you to make the goal for the day (camp, summit, the car) then you're fine, you might get there a little later than a fast hiker but a good group/partner will realize that it is better for them to pace themselves off of you and come into camp at the same time feeling good rather then getting there 45 minutes earlier and being beat. They have a choice of going fast and waiting or going slower and feeling less tired and I think a good group/partner will realize what the better option is.

CClaude wrote:

bvbellomo wrote:......
Also, it isn't all about me having fun when other climbers have less fun because they are waiting for me.

Would I have been better off training for a 5 minute mile or 17 minute 5k instead?

Its good that you aree thinking about your partners, but as I said, if you've done everything in your ability to train for the trip, arrived healthy and tried to stay healthy.... you've done your part. No one can fault you, and that is what partnerships are about. Hell, I've had a trip where my partner and I trained hard for a year, we got onto the mountain and he drank contaminated water on the way in (and I warned him). By the time we were ready to cross the bergshroud he was having gastro-intestinal distress and then developed bronchitis. I ended up carrying some of his load and gave him most of my food on the retreat. Its a partnership....

Is it better to train for a 5 minute mile or a marathon. A bit of both. The training for the mile helps with cardiac stroke volume (which does improve altitude athletic performance) but it still is largely an aerobic thing which the longer training helps with.

I did an interesting informal experiment with respect to altitude and running fitness in 2002. Five friends and I all did a day hike of Whitney by the main trail, which of course involves a 14.5K' summit with about 20 mi RT hiking and about 13K' of elevation change. Four of us were running buddies and had run marathons that year. Two were non-runners, and they were in average aerobic shape. I and and two of my friends ran 3:15-3:30 marathons that year (hilly ones - Big Sur and San Francisco) and the other marathoner ran a couple of sub 3 hr marathons (San Francisco and Napa, also hilly). The 3:15 guy, and the sub-3 guy were also ultramarathoners and routinely did 50-100 mi runs. The guy who did the hike the fastest and with least altitude sickness was the 3:15 guy. I was somewhere in the middle - felt pretty bad on the summit but recovered after eating and drinking a bit and finished the hike an hour behind the fastest guy. The two people with little or no aerobic training showed no altitude effects and while they finished after I did felt fine on the summit. The guy who did worst - barely able to walk on the summit, looked terrible, and last to finish - was the sub 3 hr guy - by far the fastest runner among us. My arguably unscientific experiment supported the claim that absolute fitness is much less important to altitude tolerance than proper pacing, hydration, and food intake.

JHH60 wrote:My arguably unscientific experiment supported the claim that absolute fitness is much less important to altitude tolerance than proper pacing, hydration, and food intake.

I'd support that conclusion! Thanks for sharin' that story...

We are talking about two things here and they are actually different. One is the ability to acclimate to altitude and the other one is physical preformance at altitude. While ability to acclimate affects physical preformance the two are actually completely different things.

The ability to acclimate involves genetics, vascular endothelial function (vascular tone affects fluid accumulation in the lungs), along with day to day things like hydration and illnesses.

Athletic preformance at any altitude is more mundane with things like VO2 max, anaerobic thresholds, but also things like red blood cell production (training for extended periods at altitude increases the volume of red blood cells).

To compare individuals based on their marathon times (unless all the marathons were at 15,000ft altitude) would be a poor predictor since it ignores the genetic aspects. But since the genetic aspect of acclimitization and high altitude performance is outside our control, maximize the potential in what we can control. Like being healthy , hydrated going into the experience and maximize your physical potential.

CClaude wrote:To compare individuals based on their marathon times (unless all the marathons were at 15,000ft altitude) would be a poor predictor since it ignores the genetic aspects. But since the genetic aspect of acclimitization and high altitude performance is outside our control, maximize the potential in what we can control. Like being healthy , hydrated going into the experience and maximize your physical potential.

I agree that there are two different factors involved but would state the conclusion a little differently. The limiting factor for an individual's performance at altitude will depend on athletic ability and on acclimitization. Even highly fit individuals who aren't acclimatized may not perform well. What's more, if someone is already fairly fit, then a lot of additional training may only increase their fitness slightly in absolute terms. So while more training for such individuals may make them perform slightly better at altitude, more acclimitization will make them perform a lot better. So while I never think training is a bad idea (having been a runner for most of my adult life), and more training can't hurt the OP, if someone has a problem at altitude the solution for that person may not be to train more, but to focus on a better acclimatization strategy. Take more time on rest days, go slower on ascents, hydrate more, etc.

CClaude wrote:To compare individuals based on their marathon times (unless all the marathons were at 15,000ft altitude) would be a poor predictor since it ignores the genetic aspects. But since the genetic aspect of acclimitization and high altitude performance is outside our control, maximize the potential in what we can control. Like being healthy , hydrated going into the experience and maximize your physical potential.

Perfect!

Let's not forget though that aerobic and anaerobic fitness can only benefit ones altitude performance. Doing ones best to work at and then maintain fitness in these disciplines, should be included in ones training routine.

I'm certainly not arguing that climbers shouldn't train. If you're on a guided trip or climbing with a group where you don't control the pace, your degree of training may be the only part of performance at altitude you can control (other than maintaining hydration, getting sufficient nutrition, etc.). But if you have a say in the group pace, are already pretty fit, and still find yourself struggling at altitude, the best solution might be to tell your climbing partners you need to take an extra day at 4000m (or whatever) to acclimitize.