dskoon wrote:Chief, is it necessarily a "Christian value," to give girls, around the world, the opportunity to be educated? Do you know for certain that GM was spreading his "missionary philosophy," rather than just building schools?

Ah, did you read 3COT???

Girls.. girls... girls etc.

Like I posted, to go into a known region where the culture depicts women as this culture does, and attempt to promote the western values regarding women etc. is no less equal to attempting to build a Muslim Masque a block from the "WTC Ground Zero".

I am not against this what so ever mind you. But, c'mon. Logic, as posted, needs to be thought out here. The Taliban are the most fanatic of this negative Muslim perspective towards women.

Screw logic. Common sense needs to prevail when attempting such a deep cultural changing endeavor such as this. To me, it is nothing short of the American perspective that everyone in the world wants the way of baseball, hot dogs and apple pie in their lives.

The Chief wrote:
Reality and Facts prevail in this issue...Not logic nor emotions.

False dichotomy.

The Chief wrote:Logic claims a dude the likes of GM could never do a thing like this.

Just false. Logic claims nothing. And a person using logic would not necessarily arrive at that conclusion. I don't think you know what logic actually is.

builttospill wrote:

The Chief wrote:
Reality and Facts prevail in this issue...Not logic nor emotions.

False dichotomy.

The Chief wrote:Logic claims a dude the likes of GM could never do a thing like this.

Just false. Logic claims nothing. And a person using logic who would not necessarily arrive at that conclusion. I don't think you know what logic actually is.

Dude, stay on topic of the OP would ya.

You want to chop my balls with your newly found academia, start another thread in OFF ROUTE and we can discuss your immense knowledge in experiential logic.

Cease being a damn academia TROLL!

Maybe I missed something, but there's an awful lot of knowledge, practical as well as theoretical, that has come from academia.

Buz Groshong wrote:Maybe I missed something, but there's an awful lot of knowledge, practical as well as theoretical, that has come from academia.

And what does "academia knowledge" have anything to do with the fact that GM may just potentially be a scam?

Better yet, the lead "acadamia" masters within the CAI Board history, Tom Horbein & Gordon Wiltsie, both left the program in total disgust at GM's financial practices.

"In 2002, Hornbein and others resigned from the board of CAI claiming that Mortenson was refusing to inform them or be held financially accountable. One former board member, Gordon Wiltsie, told Krakauer at the time that he was quitting because: “Greg regards CAI as his personal ATM.”

http://humanosphere.kplu.org/2011/04/te ... more-11663

Also, any PhD in Cultural Geography will tell ya that attempting to do as GM did, going into a region which cultural law dictates as it does towards women, is completely insane madness. Especially when the nation your are from is at War with the prevailing tribes, the Taliban, within that region you are attempting to prevail your philosophy in.

I hope that those that defend GM, clearly understand the Taliban and their dead seriousness towards their law and way of life. Indeed a major player in all this.

The Chief wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:Maybe I missed something, but there's an awful lot of knowledge, practical as well as theoretical, that has come from academia.

And what does "academia knowledge" have anything to do with the fact that GM may just potentially be a scam?

Better yet, the lead "acadamia" masters within the CAI Board history, Tom Horbein & Gordon Wiltsie, both left the program in total disgust at GM's financial practices.

"In 2002, Hornbein and others resigned from the board of CAI claiming that Mortenson was refusing to inform them or be held financially accountable. One former board member, Gordon Wiltsie, told Krakauer at the time that he was quitting because: “Greg regards CAI as his personal ATM.”

http://humanosphere.kplu.org/2011/04/te ... more-11663

Also, any PhD in Cultural Geography will tell ya that attempting to do as GM did, going into a region which cultural law dictates as it does towards women, is completely insane madness. Especially when the nation your are from is at War with the prevailing tribes, the Taliban, within that region you are attempting to prevail your philosophy in.

I hope that those that defend GM, clearly understand the Taliban and their dead seriousness towards their law and way of life. Indeed a major player in all this.

The Chief wrote:Cease being a damn academia TROLL!

I just think we can do without the anti-intellectual name-calling. Deal with the issues and quit attacking the speaker.

Buz Groshong wrote:I just think we can do without the anti-intellectual name-calling. Deal with the issues and quit attacking the speaker.

Agreed. Goes both ways....SKOON & BTS!

Neither has addressed the OP, just my persona and mannerisms here on SP!


Knock Knock.... who's there? Ah, hypocrisy.

I expect nothing less.

The Chief wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:I just think we can do without the anti-intellectual name-calling. Deal with the issues and quit attacking the speaker.

Agreed. Goes both ways....SKOON & BTS!

Neither has addressed the OP, just my persona and mannerisms here on SP!


Knock Knock.... who's there? Ah, hypocrisy.

I expect nothing less.

You're right, we certainly have heard more about that than we should have! Yes, it should go both ways.

The Chief wrote:Neither has addressed the OP, just my persona and mannerisms here on SP!

Chief, here is yet another attempt, by me, to engage with the OP and broader situation.

My argument was never about the accuracy of the claims against GM. In fact, I suspect he is guilty of all or nearly all of them. I never claimed otherwise. (please refer again to my statement that you argue with people who are not disagreeing with you)

I just said that, given that we are not absolutely certain about the accuracy of all the claims, it is possible that some of the most egregious might turn out to not be true. If some claims are true and some are false, I care a great deal about which ones. Again, I understand that you may feel differently, but I think some of the many possible misdeeds that GM has committed are worse than others.

While I don't agree with everything this author writes, she makes a similar point here:

http://www.salon.com/books/laura_miller/2011/04/19/greg_mortenson?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

From the article: "Only maybe CAI isn't transforming lives, or not transforming them nearly as well as it could or should be. This is the issue that has been half-buried by the fuss over whether or not Mortenson prevaricated about his stint in the village or being kidnapped. It's understandable that journalists like Krakauer or the staff of "60 Minutes" might see such yarns as an outrage, but Mortenson isn't a journalist and neither are most of the people who read and loved "Three Cups of Tea." The far more substantive financial allegations against Mortenson are at risk of getting tossed out with the bathwater that amounts to the 50th iteration of the "lying memoirist" scandal." (underlining mine)


Some of the people on SP care more about the integrity of the man and the story, and I sympathize with that. I care more about the efficacy of the organization and its impact (because that's essentially what I do for a living, despite Chief's incorrect assumption that I am some ivory tower intellectual!). So my view is different. Not better, just different. I hope you can appreciate that, just as I try (and admittedly often fail) to appreciate your entirely different but also valid and valuable perspective.

builttospill wrote: I care more about the efficacy of the organization and its impact (because that's essentially what I do for a living...

Many times I stated that the original premise of the CAI is no less than awesome and hope that this issue does not bring it down.

That my friend is not what is at issue here nor has it ever been. The issue is again, is entirely GM and his financial practices. Unfortunately, his financial behavior is what is going to bring HIM down. Not the CAI! And I don't believe that any of the accusations that are the major points regarding his financial behaviors, are at all "bathwater". The Montana State Attorney Gen nor IRS get involved in matters that have no substance to them.

BTW, What is your profession?

T Sharp wrote:Sorry, but I am going to consider the source of the accusations made, and the character of the accused, and since when is that bad?
I have read the 60 minute transcript, Mr. Mortenson`s answers to the questions raised, and the CAI`s answers to the 60 minutes questions. All easily found on the 60 minutes web site.
I am going to consider the work ethic of the accused, his goals and the very nature of his life`s work, and weigh that against the sensational nature of John Krakauer, and his self serving finger pointing...reminds me of "The Donald"....cant stand on his own, he has to drag someone down to gain notoriety.

And the "lets find a scandal" type of journalism that 60 minutes has made a living on for decades that seems to have very thinly "sourced" some accusations that were easily rebutted by Mortenson and CAI. 60 minutes is trying to play middle of the road, we just report, there might be something wrong here type of story...what a crying damn shame, that such a worthy endeavor as the CAI could be ruined for no good reason, and without an actual cause. Boo CBS and 60 Minutes and Boo John Krakauer, a man I never trusted since reading Anatoli Boukreev`s The Climb.

Some types of "lets find a scandal" type of journalism is known as investigative journalism, or good ol' journalism.

PBS's Frontline (as founded by Fanning and the old vanguard of some 60 Minutes folks) that brought down big tobacco, for one.

The two more recent Pulitzer prize winners that exposed the corruption of the city of Bell, California, for another. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/bell/

It keeps people, or lots of people, honest, which is important when writing journalism, or other works of non-fiction.

The Chief wrote:

builttospill wrote: I care more about the efficacy of the organization and its impact (because that's essentially what I do for a living...

Many times I stated that the original premise of the CAI is no less than awesome and hope that this issue does not bring it down.

I don't mean the premise, which almost anyone agreed with. I mean the dollar-for-dollar impact that the organization has had on actual children in the region.

I mean that if Allegations X, Y and Z (financial misappropriation, claiming credit for schools that were not built, claiming credit for schools that were built by other people/groups, building schools that were not wanted, not properly supporting schools once they were built) are true, those facts suggest that the organization is squandering money in a huge way and is probably not making any positive impact at all (and perhaps having negative impact).

If Allegations B, C and D (lies about the timeline of entering Korphe, lies about the Taliban kidnapping, exaggerations and misrepresentations of other kinds in the book) are true, that says plenty about GM and his character, but somewhat less about how much effect he and his organization have had on children in Af/Pak.

I care more about allegations X, Y and Z. I accept that many people don't feel the same way. If they're all (B, C, D, X, Y, Z) true, then this is a moot point anyway.

By the way, the bathwater comment I assume was a bit of hyperbole on the part of the author, but I don't know. I believe lying systematically in a book is pretty damn bad. But it's not the MOST important thing to me.

The Chief wrote:BTW, What is your profession?

I'm not going to post my cv on SP. I'm a student with research interests in this area. I have worked for an organization that built schools in rural, mostly Muslim areas of developing countries, including areas with ethnic and religious tension and occasionally in post-conflict areas. Never Afghanistan or Pakistan. I continue to do occasional work for them--my work involved evaluation of their projects mainly. I've done other relevant work.

Many of the problems that GM has had I have seen first-hand in other organizations, including the one I worked for. Schools not being maintained, teachers not being paid. Projects being completed without community input into what they really could have used (i.e. build a clinic but they needed a well). Exaggeration and misrepresentation of accomplishments for the purposes of seeking donations. Interacting with disgruntled locals, who were disgruntled for a wide variety of reasons (including some entirely valid ones). Misappropriation of funds by in-country staff, HQ staff and incredibly sloppy accounting practices.

Biggest difference between most of those groups and CAI is scale (mostly smaller than CAI, but one was particularly big) and that no one had written a bestseller to launch it, packed with lies. (and potential theft of money or misallocation on a far grander scale in this case)


You and I clearly agree that these allegations are serious. I'm just trying to make clear why I might care more about some of them than others. But I know that you feel differently.


Anyway, I think I've harped on that point quite enough. I know you're tired of reading my long-winded posts too, so let's all just see how this thing unfolds as time goes on.

The Chief wrote:
The issue is again, is entirely GM and his financial practices.

Not to nitpick, but this has been part of my point all along. The financial practices are DAMNING. That's more important than the misrepresentations in the book. But a lot of the discussion in the media and here has been less about that and more about the lies about Korphe and the Taliban. Those lies are bad. But I think the possible theft and/or misuse of charitable donations is worse.

A different take on things:

http://wrongingrights.blogspot.com/2011/04/really-greg-mortenson-really.html

She disagrees with my argument, in an interesting way.

"And while we're on the subject of things-that-get-sacrificed-in-the-service-of-narrative, if the books really contain the "factual inaccuracies" alleged by Krakauer and 60 Minutes, then to me, that is even more upsetting than all of the private jet malarkey."

I also like this line, for anyone who is interested in aid/development/NGO efficacy:

"Megan McArdle reminds us that when we demand "messianic development projects and neat stories with happy endings," what we get is development done by people with messiah complexes, and neat stories that aren't actually true."

Here are some related 501(c) fraud events that pretty much equate to GM's irresponsible financial behaviors....

In 1992, William Aramony, the CEO of United Way of America for more than twenty years, resigned amid allegations of financial mismanagement and criminal activity, for which he was convicted and sentenced to prison.

Oral Suer was the CEO of the United Way of the National Capital Area in the Washington, D.C. area from 1974 to 2002. In 2002, he was charged with defrauding his organization of several hundred thousand dollars through misuse of leave salary, misreporting expenses such as billing private travel to his company, and drawing retirement benefits from the UWNCA retirement fund while he was still working there. In May 2004, Suer was convicted and sentenced to 27 months in jail.