jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

fatdad wrote:

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

i'm amused you think I am a troll. Why do you think that? And what makes you think what I said isn't true? I just said that I did a 12.5 mile hike nonstop the week prior at sea level with zero issues. I am relatively fit. I am still confused as to why you think what I posted classifies as "unbelievable", what's so unbelievable about it

In my case, I don't even know if what I felt was infact AMS... I said I just felt weak and extremely exhausted and that caught me by surprise, of course I know I would lose some of my ability at that altitude but I did not think it would be so drastic. Also, now I have analyzed my climb on Strava and parts of it were infact a 30+% grade, that's not easy at that altitude.

It seems to follow common sense that physical fitness would help a great deal, not preventing AMS but if you're a 9/10 and lose 40% of your ability you're at 5.4/10 and that may still be good enough to make it to the summit, if you're a 5 to begin with and lose 40% you're now at 3 and that may result in failure to summit.

I have also done some reading on the net and it looks like a mild headache is very common for everyone at that altitude and may not necessarily indicate a case of AMS.

And now that I did my analysis, I think I went about the whole hike wrong. First and foremost, I should've camped out at the trailhead at 11600'... as someone else pointed out on this thread camping at 8'500 ft barely qualifies as acclimatization LOL!, then I should've started the hike way early, like at 6am stead of 9am (and felt the need to rush) and taken at least 20 min breaks every 1000ft of ascent... live and learn

The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

funnyman7878 wrote:
The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

For mild manifestations of AMS (insomnia, headaches, and nausea are all mild forms of AMS) the vast majority of people will acclimate after two or three days at a given altitude. However, if dealing with more severe manifestations like pulmonary and cerebral edema, a return to lower elevations is mandated. It takes about five days before an individual will start producing extra oxygen-carrying red blood cells, and that is when one's endurance will start to improve to what can be had closer to sea level.

WyomingSummits wrote:Yeah, it's strange. It's not like I have to go every minute, but definitely way more than normal especially at night. I've noticed I really have to avoid fruit and that the better hydrated I am, the less likely it is that it'll happen. Hydration has to start 2 days prior to a trip for most people. If you start a trip slightly dehydrated then it's nearly impossible to catch up. I just read a study on Ginko Biloba helping reduce AMS if taken twice a day for 5 days prior to a trip. Anyone have any experience with this?

While some earlier studies indicated gb helped, this better-controlled study suggest it may not, but just for the physiologic factors measured.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694514/

I believe Ginko has pretty much been discredited as the active ingredient is never standardised in whatever form it is dispensed thus making trials of its effect very hard to prove either way.

funnyman7878 wrote:

fatdad wrote:

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:At this point, I think it's safe to say, the OP is thoroughly confused

I think the OP was confused in the first place, if s/he wasn't a troll. I had a hard buying the genuineness of 'gee, I can hike no problem at sea level, but at altitude, it's hard'. Plus, funnyman hasn't chimed back in since the original post.

i'm amused you think I am a troll. Why do you think that? And what makes you think what I said isn't true? I just said that I did a 12.5 mile hike nonstop the week prior at sea level with zero issues. I am relatively fit. I am still confused as to why you think what I posted classifies as "unbelievable", what's so unbelievable about it

In my case, I don't even know if what I felt was infact AMS... I said I just felt weak and extremely exhausted and that caught me by surprise, of course I know I would lose some of my ability at that altitude but I did not think it would be so drastic. Also, now I have analyzed my climb on Strava and parts of it were infact a 30+% grade, that's not easy at that altitude.

It seems to follow common sense that physical fitness would help a great deal, not preventing AMS but if you're a 9/10 and lose 40% of your ability you're at 5.4/10 and that may still be good enough to make it to the summit, if you're a 5 to begin with and lose 40% you're now at 3 and that may result in failure to summit.

I have also done some reading on the net and it looks like a mild headache is very common for everyone at that altitude and may not necessarily indicate a case of AMS.

And now that I did my analysis, I think I went about the whole hike wrong. First and foremost, I should've camped out at the trailhead at 11600'... as someone else pointed out on this thread camping at 8'500 ft barely qualifies as acclimatization LOL!, then I should've started the hike way early, like at 6am stead of 9am (and felt the need to rush) and taken at least 20 min breaks every 1000ft of ascent... live and learn

The question here is... given sufficient time will everyone eventually acclimatize to altitude? or do some people just never do?

Some acclimate, some stay in that state, and a few progress to pulmonary edema. You don't want to stick around for the latter.....

lol@jesu, is it advisable to hike to that altitude alone? well, I guess that is an entirely different topic!!!

From what I have read Diamox just forces the body to do exactly what the body will eventually do to acclimatize anyway which is to stimulate the excretion of bicarbonate from the kidneys. Since the body's altitude detection mechanism is slower it may be wise to give the body a head start by using Diamox.

funnyman7878 wrote:lol@jesu, is it advisable to hike to that altitude alone? well, I guess that is an entirely different topic!!!

From what I have read Diamox just forces the body to do exactly what the body will eventually do to acclimatize anyway which is to stimulate the excretion of bicarbonate from the kidneys. Since the body's altitude detection mechanism is slower it may be wise to give the body a head start by using Diamox.

I hike to that altitude alone all the time.....but my heart isnt banging in my chest like a marching band.

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/white-mountain-questions-help-advice-needed-t67841-15.html

Funnyman, I just noticed that you posted your Everest Basecamp schedule awhile back. It looks good to me. By the way, did you have problems with AMS in South America? Anyway, you started a good discussion here. It looks to me like you are getting a lot of tips that agree with my altitude related advice in your White Mtn. thread. The issue is complex. It is good that you are practicing hiking and practicing some at high altitude. Start your hikes/trips at altitude at a slow pace, climb/move up in altitude gradually, start and stay hydrated, get good rest/sleep before and during, eat well, breathe well, and be in the best shape you can (but don't let that lull you into pushing too hard and fast). I have experienced AMS on Langley similar to what you experienced on White, while very fit. I have experienced mild AMS (throbbing headache, digestive issues, mild nausea) several times above 10,000 feet, generally more so and worse above 12-13,000 feet. I also recently experienced lots of hiking at 13,OOO to 14,000 feet after several warm up hikes in the 10,000-12,000 foot range and consistently sleeping at 8,000-10,000 feet for several days. I felt great above 13,000 feet this summer whereas I used to feel much worse without the gradual acclimatization process I was able to schedule this summer with a few long trips without lots of sea level time between trips. Anyway, if you get up high in your local mountains and in the Sierra/Whites a lot preceding your big trip it should help you physically and mentally to go along with what looks like a sensible Everest Basecamp schedule. Just realize that the physical adjustments to being at high altitude will diminish quickly if you can't be up high often and if you will be at sea level the week(s) before your Everest trip.

funnyman7878 wrote:From what I have read Diamox just forces the body to do exactly what the body will eventually do to acclimatize anyway which is to stimulate the excretion of bicarbonate from the kidneys. Since the body's altitude detection mechanism is slower it may be wise to give the body a head start by using Diamox.

That is exactly how Diamox works. The side effects are generally mild for most people. Increase in urination is common (it is a diuretic), but if you are drinking plenty of water anyway, it is not an issue (at least not for me). I do notice a mild tingling sensation in my finger tips and very mild tinnitus — what I'd better describe as something of a pleasant auditory hallucinatory effect, a bit weird and hard to describe. Tinnitus sufferers might not do so well. As with many drugs, there are individual exceptions and side effects can be serious. It is a prescription drug, and that is a good thing. Play it safe and test dose beforehand.

I'm not a doctor and have not researched the diamox can of worms aside from casually reading SP debates over the years, so...

Peninsula is giving good information, and frankly has me considering trying diamox if I ever regain the desire I used to have to hike as high in altitude as possible, while still living at sea level and almost always having several weeks down low between trips to the mountains. I'm sure you noticed the bolded word. Now let me open another can of worms (and then a few more). I consider that desire I had to be an ailment in itself and it is an ailment I often observe in mountain enthusiasts early in their mountaineering careers. I figured out that often better/equal scenery and better/equal challenges can be found below the highest peaks. Some of my most boring mountain experiences have been in pursuit of well known 13ers, 14ers, Yosemite landmarks, etc. Now I actually have to overcome a bias against such peaks if I ever hope to summit Whitney and maybe I'll need to take the Mountaineers Route off peak season or some more obscure way to the summit. When I venture to mountains in other states and if I venture to mountains around the world, I will try to be open to the famous high points, but will be skeptical that they will provide better and more beautiful challenges and experiences. Life is too short to visit them all and I'm having a great time year round at various elevations within a few minutes to a half day drive from my home and my family (immediate and extended). Mentioning family is verging into other topic areas, but bringing my children with me has its own rewards.

So now to those other cans of worms, the culinary and fitness variety. I have a suspicion that a tendency/ailment that I am recently overcoming to build heavy, explosive muscle mass and to eat lots of protein has worked against my ability to stay hydrated, avoid AMS, and hike/scramble steeply. I am not a climber and avoid class 4 and often class 3 when possible, especially when exposure is high.
It sounds like some other fit, beast-like mountaineers described in this thread have had similar problems up high to me. Eating less protein before and during hikes and dropping explosive muscle mass a bit in favor of increasing endurance endeavors seems like it might have helped me with hydration and long hikes at altitude. I seem closer to the balance that makes sense for the activities I actually do most (hiking, scrambling, trail running, cycling, swimming). Training and eating like a linebacker, tight end, or wide receiver has limited value when I only watch football on television and don't play. Training and eating like a sport climber has limited value if I rarely even consider high class 3-low class 4 terrain (let alone class 5). On the other hand, maybe I will always be a beast who needs to heavily hydrate to the point it seems insane compared to those around me. A little lighter now and less protein focused, I do seem to sweat much less and my feet and joints appreciate being under 200 pounds going back down to the trailhead.

Yeah, I know there is lots of science and philosophy I am just touching upon, or in some cases oversimplifying and possibly even butchering with my can of worms generalizations, but I guess I felt like touching on a few concepts that seem to be helping me physically and mentally in my own chosen pursuits. Your journies may bring you to similar places, or very different ones; enjoy them regardless!

Funnyman, I am not a doctor, but I personally would not jump to experimenting with diamox before trying out more of the other advice given to you in this thread and the White Mountain thread first. You did not play it as safe in the White Mountains as you could have.

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:How did John Muir ever get up anything without acetazolamide?

I don't think John Muir even had an "app," if you can believe it.

funnyman7878 wrote:
And now that I did my analysis, I think I went about the whole hike wrong. First and foremost, I should've camped out at the trailhead at 11600'... as someone else pointed out on this thread camping at 8'500 ft barely qualifies as acclimatization LOL!, then I should've started the hike way early, like at 6am stead of 9am (and felt the need to rush) and taken at least 20 min breaks every 1000ft of ascent... live and learn...

You seem to read all the long posts in all the threads you have started, but being that this all seems very new to you, I'm not sure which points end up sticking with you most. I''ll be direct and specific. Sleeping at 8,500 can be valuable, but only as a beginning to the process. On that White Mountain scenario you would very likely have done better doing exactly what I mentioned in the other thread (day 1--camp a night at 8,500 in the campground, hike around some there to take in some views the first evening if time allows, maybe hike up to or around at the nearby roadside vista point, day 2-- hike at 10,000 to 12,000 feet in one or both Bristlcone Pine groves or to a lower peak in the Whites, maybe camp at the trailhead at 12,000 feet if feeling no symptoms and sleep at altitude is going well, day 3--hike White Mountain Peak well rested, well hydrated, well fed, and at a slow pace to not overexert yourself.)

As others have mentioned, sleep lower for recovery if sleeping high goes poorly for you. Be aware of HACE and HAPE symptoms. I have foolishly risked early symptoms by trail running, going too fast, or not staying hydrated enough all above 12,000 and 13,000 feet.

Yeah, hiking with 2,000 feet of gain and a fraction of the oxygen available is vastly different than hiking down low.
I barely even listen or know the answer when someone mentions number of miles on a route I am doing or planning. Altitude, amount of gain, amount of up and down and back up again, terrain, conditions, weather, beauty, and solitude are the main factors that influence my decisions, not miles. Now don't get me wrong; learning your average pace per mile in various types of terrain can be very valuable in your planning and decision making process.

SeanReedy wrote:I figured out that often better/equal scenery and better/equal challenges can be found below the highest peaks. Some of my most boring mountain experiences have been in pursuit of well known 13ers, 14ers, Yosemite landmarks, etc. Now I actually have to overcome a bias against such peaks if I ever hope to summit Whitney and maybe I'll need to take the Mountaineers Route off peak season or some more obscure way to the summit. When I venture to mountains in other states and if I venture to mountains around the world, I will try to be open to the famous high points, but will be skeptical that they will provide better and more beautiful challenges and experiences. Life is too short to visit them all...

I'm not a peak bagger, but I do thrive at higher elevations and the vast scenic solitude rewarding such efforts. Without doubt, similar experiences can be had in many locations, but Sequoia/Kings Canyon (SEKI) never fails me, not to mention the convenience of location for a SoCal resident. It is why I keep returning. I've made it something of an ill-defined goal to explore all of the basins within SEKI along the PCT by way of every established eastern escarpment entrance/exit. I was hooked with my first trip in 79. I should add, of all the locations, Mt. Whitney is my least favorite. It's a stinking freeway up there. Off-season visits are one way to make the most of Whitney. A better option might be to make Whitney an exit with an entrance from elsewhere (New Army is one of my favorites).

I don't attempt "mimicking" planned expeditions with training, but that should be qualified by my avoiding anything greater than class 2. My primary goal is to maintain a high level of aerobic cardiovascular fitness. The least traumatic training for my knees and increasingly sensitive feet is cycling. AMS aside, I find cardiovascular fitness, hydration and a healthy, well-balanced diet to be the key issues when it comes to squeezing in as much enjoyment as can be had. Diamox is secondary, but I do find it helps. Indeed, we only have so many miles in our legs... we best make the most of what is left.