It would appear you have never done so. Try it and watch. fig 8 is nothing but a "fancy" EDK with an extra loop. The tension legs enter the knot exactly, perfect match for, the EDK. It flips out just like EDK. It doesn't get stuck, wedged in, because it flips upright and has no flat face, just like EDK.

I have done so many times, but you must be using something else.

Please show a photo (or diagram) of how a figure 8 knot can be pulled over a corner without the knot touching it.

simply pre pull the knot over the edge first.

It doesn't work as well if there are multiple edges all the way down a rappel or if the edge isn't at the top of the rap.

Wastral wrote:

Scott wrote:

fig 8 does the exact same

Um, no; it does not.

How can you pull a figure 8 knot over a corner and not have the knot touch the wall? It's physically impossible.

It would appear you have never done so. Try it and watch. fig 8 is nothing but a "fancy" EDK with an extra loop. The tension legs enter the knot exactly, perfect match for, the EDK. It flips out just like EDK. It doesn't get stuck, wedged in, because it flips upright and has no flat face, just like EDK.

ANyways, if you get into double person rappels where twice the burden is on the ropes, you will really wish you had used a fig 8 instead of EDK.

EDK is perfectly acceptable, but harder to get apart than fig 8.

What is the figure 8 "with an extra loop?" I thought everyone was talking about the rewoven figure 8 to tie the ropes. Also, when you say "double person rappels" do you mean a tandem rappel (one person doing the braking for his partner) or simul rappelling?

What is the figure 8 "with an extra loop?"

I think he's saying that the figure 8 is an overhand with an extra loop, which is basically true. Still, I want to see his photo/diagram of how you can pull one over a corner without the knot touching a corner.

Unfortunately Wastral has been a troll on this site for years. I would recommend members completely disregard anything he says...

Take for example when he thought J'burg was Class 3 and insisted that the Cascades had "very few" 5th class peaks. That's a serious/terrible thing to say as it may give someone a false sense of difficulty potentially putting someone in a dangerous and perhaps deadly situation.

Scott is correct here in the fact that the EDK is the best knot to use if your rope could get stuck on the pull. A figure-8 has a lip on both ends allowing it ti catch on edges and in between rocks. The EDK will always face upward and the knot itself will not touch an edge if the rope is pulled over a sharp edge.

Regarding which one is easier to untie, I think they are both about the same difficulty. I have weighted both knots many times and can't say one is easier to untie than the other.

Matt Lemke wrote:Unfortunately Wastral has been a troll on this site for years. I would recommend members completely disregard anything he says...

Take for example when he thought J'burg was Class 3 and insisted that the Cascades had "very few" 5th class peaks. That's a serious/terrible thing to say as it may give someone a false sense of difficulty potentially putting someone in a dangerous and perhaps deadly situation.

Scott is correct here in the fact that the EDK is the best knot to use if your rope could get stuck on the pull. A figure-8 has a lip on both ends allowing it ti catch on edges and in between rocks. The EDK will always face upward and the knot itself will not touch an edge if the rope is pulled over a sharp edge.

Regarding which one is easier to untie, I think they are both about the same difficulty. I have weighted both knots many times and can't say one is easier to untie than the other.

Agreed, which is why I use the square double fisherman. Has a much narrower bulk and I've had it snag once ever. That being said, I know the EDK and will use it if I feel I need it. Never hurts anyone to have a wide range of knots in their repertoire. I have weighted every rap knot, and feel the square double fish is also easiest to untie. However, I will NEVER say that it is a superior knot....just that's it's worked for 27 yrs and kept me from dying. Any knot that performs that basic function is alright in my book.
As for tossing the knot over the ledge to avoid it rubbing the edge......that might work on steep/overhung sport, but in the trad/alpine world it's a rare occurrance. Really not a feasible solution to hunt tirelessly for an edgeless rap anchor.....but to each their own.

So, JBurb magically turns itself into a 5th class peak in Matt Lemke's book when the green Becky Bible calls it 3rd via its most climbed direction and that also fits my recollection as well. Damn, guess I am trolling.

Trolling the truth it would seem.

Are most peaks in the cascades devoid of 5th class? Yup. The number that are 5th class are few. Forbidden, a north cascades classic is not 5th class. Shucksan another north cascades classic is not 5th class. Challenger has all of 35feet of 4th and 3 moves of 5th class, yet another north cascades classic. Eldorado? Nope. Dome? No. Fortress? No. Clark? No. Bonanza? No. Buckner? No. Logan, no. Goode? Sorta, not really. Ragged ridge/Mesachie? No. Black? No. Redoubt? No. Spickard? No. Jack? No. Silver Star? No. A few in the pickets? Yes. Most are class 4. Fernow? No Hozomeen? No. Tower? Yes, 2 moves. EDIT: Looked it up, its not either. Triumph? Yes, 2 moves. Nearly every major N. Cascade peak is not 5th. Nearly all are 3rd and 4th.

What is more dangerous, chossy 4th class or 5th? 4th. Rating has jack shit to do with danger.

In short there are very few 5th class peaks in the cascades. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie. If one wants to state there are many 5th class routes, then yes, but peaks? No. Large number of 3rd and 4th class, yes. 5th class, no. Take the bulger 100 top peaks and the number that is 5th class is mox(s), austera, klawati, Dorado needle, Goode, Storm King, Tushpin, so, all of 8 peaks out of 100.

Fig 8 does not have a lip on both sides. It has the exact same bottom orientation as the EDK on how it presents itself to the rock. It is why it sticks upright like the EDK. Not sure what you are smoking to believe otherwise, tie the DAMNED THING and take a look. The same reason you tie into your harness with a fig 8 backed up with an overhand knot is why you tie ropes together with it. So you can easily get it apart.

Don't believe me? Clearly you do not. Tie into your harness with an overhand knot backed up with another overhand knot instead of fig 8 backed up with another overhand knot. Try to untie it afterwards. No rapelling necessary for this obvious demonstration. Now, which one is easier to untie...

Guess I will keep trolling.

Nothing wrong with EDK, I have used it on many occasions, just harder to untie is the bottom line. One can claim it is safer when wet when tied improperly. Of course the correlation is the DFK is vastly superior to both knots as the rope will break before the knot does.

Different knots for different applications.

Fig 8 does not have a lip on both sides. It has the exact same bottom orientation as the EDK on how it presents itself to the rock. It is why it sticks upright like the EDK. Not sure what you are smoking to believe otherwise, tie the DAMNED THING and take a look.

I have, which why I am asking. I want to see a photo/diagram of how you can pull one over a corner without the knot touching a corner. Please take a photo or draw us a diagram and show us how this is possible. If you are right, I only want to see it, not to argue about it.

(PS, I agree that you should tie in with a Figure 8, so you don't need to expand on that).

I don't even think there is anything dangerous with using a figure 8 either.

The original question was as follows:

What is everyone's favorite rap knot?

...and my response, with explanation was:

DK always. If you pull the knot over a corner, the knot turns and always faces out, thus no extra wear on the rope. It's the least likely knot to snag as well.

This is partly because the majority of the technical stuff I do is on sandstone, which is incredible rough on ropes. I am not a world class climber by any means, but was just answering the question of what my favorite was and why.

Sandstone tends to have lots of edges:



This is true not only climbing, but even more so when canyoneering. Both are really rough on ropes if you are in sandstone. A climbing rope (dynamic) is especially easy to coreshot. Sandstone and anything edgy and in layers also can snag ropes.

So, the EDK is my favorite rappel knot because it can be pulled over an edge without the knot touching the edge and as far as I know, it is the least likely to snag.

You say that the "fig 8 does the exact same" , so I only asked how this is possible. How can you pull a figure 8 knot over a corner and not have the knot touch the wall? You still haven't explained how this is possible (maybe it is, but we need to see what you are talking about). Why not provide a photograph or diagram? It would take you all of less than a minute or two including tying the knot, taking the photograph, and posting it to SP.

Hey Wastral...dude you really have no clue do you. You can't just count major peaks when formulating a list of 5th class peaks. There are likely over 50 in the stuart range alone...Nooksack Tower, Burgundy Spire, Chianti Spire, all the f*cking wine spires, Liberty Bell, North and Middle Index, North and South Early Winters, Horseshoe Peak, Assasin Spire, Gunsight Peak, Spire Point, Cheshire Cat... I can go on and on buddy.

And green fred says J'burg is 4th class NOT 3rd. Look it up jackass

I will not back down on the 5th class argument until you have made yourself look like the biggest fool on the planet. You're getting real close.

And regarding the knots argument...you are full of crap until you can adhere to Scotts request and show us

not sure why I'm wading into this thing ... but ...

It sounds like the poster recommending a figure eight is referring to a simple figure eight tied (essentially) like the overhand but with one extra pass around itself. Forming a single figure eight with both strands tied like a single strand.

This is wrong and carries some inherent risks.

The poster may be referring to something else...in which case ... carry on.

the appropriate form of figure eight would be the Flemish Bend (re woven eight). In which case Scott is correct...it can't be pulled over and edge cleanly.

I use an EDK almost exclusively.

logsden wrote:not sure why I'm wading into this thing ... but ...

It sounds like the poster recommending a figure eight is referring to a simple figure eight tied (essentially) like the overhand but with one extra pass around itself. Forming a single figure eight with both strands tied like a single strand.

This is wrong and carries some inherent risks.

The poster may be referring to something else...in which case ... carry on.

the appropriate form of figure eight would be the Flemish Bend (re woven eight). In which case Scott is correct...it can't be pulled over and edge cleanly.

I use an EDK almost exclusively.

You are correct, the Flemish would be the appropriate figure 8, and there is no way to pull it over an edge without contact. If I used the rewoven 8 I'd back it up on either end as I do the Square/Fisherman. I thought as well that Wastral is recommending tying a Figure 8 in the same fashion as an EDK. Not sure why he's defensive, people were just stating their favorites and why they like them.....I believe he was the one who started making it an "I'm right, you're wrong" type of deal. People have all kinds of reasons why they like particular things.....hey, on single rope climbs and caves, I still like Figure 8's for belaying/rapping! Is it wrong....no. is it better than other devices? Prob not....but it works!

He's talking about tying a figate the same way you tie the EDK.. as a knot, not a bend (but still joining the ropes). Nah mean? Both load lines coming out of the bottom, both tails coming out of the top. I can't remember the technical term- expansion-loading?

and yea, it will slide over edges probably almost as well as an EDK, and probably not be TOO much more likely to get wedged into something than an EDK (especially one backed up with another knot), but it would be a pain in the ass to release, relative to an EDK..... which is super easy to release.

Weird how people experiences are totally different with things.

But don't be a punk ass throwing insults, Wastral. No need for that.

Just to be clear here. The figure 8 as described by Wastral is not advised. The knot is much more likely to roll / capsize at very low loads.You can find tests online or do it yourself at home. It's not difficult. Wastral will likely disagree which is fine. But joining with a figure eight is not recommended either way.

Do your own research. This is not a complicated topic.

edit: for those unaware, "capsizing" means the knot rolls over itself under load. Depending on several factors, the possibility of the knot rolling completely off the rope is real.

logsden wrote:Just to be clear here. The figure 8 as described by Wastral is not advised. The knot is much more likely to roll / capsize at very low loads.You can find tests online or do it yourself at home. It's not difficult. Wastral will likely disagree which is fine. But joining with a figure eight is not recommended either way.

Do your own research. This is not a complicated topic.

edit: for those unaware, "capsizing" means the knot rolls over itself under load. Depending on several factors, the possibility of the knot rolling completely off the rope is real.

Black Diamond labs did a test of the figure 8 described above and concluded it wasn't as safe as the EDK. I believe they concluded that it may have been the culprit of a 200 ft fall a climber took while rapping in Utah in 2005....or somewhere around that time. Think I read about it in R&I or Climbing.