A couple of years ago a father and two sons were out in the Sierra, north of Tahoe I believe, to cut their Christmas tree. There was snow on the ground and they became disoriented and lost, were found a day or two later dehydrated, cold, and wet (were wearing jeans and cotton). I suppose folks here would have the rescue operation bankrupt the family, or perhaps the would be SAR folks would put a call in to his wife, and have her decide to accept a bill for $20,000 or see if they can make it out on their own.

Regardless, no line is better than one drawn where you don't want it.

In a court of law within the United States of America, IGNORANCE of the Law is not a valid defense nor excuse for ones actions.

Nor should it be in this or any other case of this sort IMO.

Going blindly, in knowledge, equipment and experience, out into an environment that can kill you and then expecting some one to come save your ass when you wake the fk up and realize the reality of the situ, is not a valid reason to get a free ride... sorry.

No Dingus, used the law as an example of plain ole Common Sense, regardless if it is public or private, climbing or going out and walking your dog in the middle of a full blown Winter storm.

The Chief wrote:In a court of law within the United States of America, IGNORANCE of the Law is not a valid defense nor excuse for ones actions.

Nor should it be in this or any other case of this sort IMO.

Going blindly, in knowledge, equipment and experience, out into an environment that can kill you and then expecting some one to come save your ass when you wake the fk up and realize the reality of the situ, is not a valid reason to get a free ride... sorry.

Agree with your comments Chief

Definition of Negligent:

The failure to use reasonable care. The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances. A departure from what an ordinary reasonable member of the community would do in the same community.


My thoughts:
This means if the community standard says that a climber should have crampons and basic safety gear to cross an ice field on a glaciated peak, then a person could be negligent if they climb it in tennis shoes. Most experts in the field of mountaineering would use crampons and basic safety gear. The Shasta climbing rangers suggest a basic list of gear to carry, as well as stating the conditions possible on this mountain. If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law. Besides the legal ramifications, what about the moral obligation of the climber to do the right thing and not jepordize others ie; climbers and rescuers?

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

Gary Schenk wrote:So if you have equipment you get a rescue? No equipment you don't?

Just cuz ya got eq don't mean shit. Knowing how to use it does.

If the ensuing investigation finds that the individual/s did not have the appropriate knowledge nor experience of the eq, they should be liable.

Just cuz ya got a rack don't mean ya can get on an El Cap A5 Grade V line or ya got some nice tools/pons don't mean ya can get on a Cody M8/WI6 Grade III Ice gig.

Come on... Common Sense.

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents

Another example on South Sister, OR:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents

I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are many examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents

South Sister:
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Last edited by Bombchaser on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

I can spend all day looking for one if that is what you want. Basically what you want me to say is you should be able to be a total dumbass on the mountain, and F everyone else. Why do we need to keep beating this to the ground? Why do you think you should be able to F over the sport for everyone else, cost everyone else more money, and put lives at risk for your own arogance? Do you think you should be able to fall and hurt someone else and that other person should just suck up all the costs and possibly go through life disabled? Mount Shasta is not a remote mountain, it has many other climbers on it. If you fall and take me out and your wearing tennis shoes, I might just kill you myself if I'm not incapacitated. People like you need to keep your arogance and ego in check. It wil come around and bite you in the ass one day. Especailly if you yourself fall and the media gets a hold of this forum like they did on the Mount Hood rescue this past winter.

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Last edited by Bombchaser on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

I can spend all day looking for one if that is what you want. Basically what you want me to say is you should be able to be a total dumbass on the mountain, and F everyone else. Why do we need to keep beating this to the ground? Why do you think you should be able to F over the sport for everyone else, cost everyone else more money, and put lives at risk for your own arogance? Do you think you should be able to fall and hurt someone else and that other person should just suck up all the costs and possibly go through life disabled? Mount Shasta is not a remote mountain, it has many other climbers on it. If you fall and take me out and your wearing tennis shoes, I might just kill you myself if I'm not incapacitated. People like you need to keep your arogance and ego in check. It wil come around and bite you in the ass one day. Especailly if you yourself fall and the media gets a hold of this forum like they did on the Mount Hood rescue this past winter.

In other words no, you have no example and your original statement was incorrect. Falling and slipping and injuring/killing someone else is NOT an example of criminal negligence in this country based on current case law.

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Last edited by Bombchaser on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

I can spend all day looking for one if that is what you want. Basically what you want me to say is you should be able to be a total dumbass on the mountain, and F everyone else. Why do we need to keep beating this to the ground? Why do you think you should be able to F over the sport for everyone else, cost everyone else more money, and put lives at risk for your own arogance? Do you think you should be able to fall and hurt someone else and that other person should just suck up all the costs and possibly go through life disabled? Mount Shasta is not a remote mountain, it has many other climbers on it. If you fall and take me out and your wearing tennis shoes, I might just kill you myself if I'm not incapacitated. People like you need to keep your arogance and ego in check. It wil come around and bite you in the ass one day. Especailly if you yourself fall and the media gets a hold of this forum like they did on the Mount Hood rescue this past winter.

In other words no, you have no example and your original statement was incorrect. Falling and slipping and injuring/killing someone else is NOT an example of criminal negligence in this country based on current case law.

My god dude you are an idiot......I posted incidents where someone was negligent or reckless or stupid!!! NO I DON'T HAVE ONE!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't mean a person can't sue!!!! You can still continue to act like a DUMBASS!!!!!! You win!!!! Go and continue to climb in your tennis shoes. Damn, you are exactly why people get so pissed over the rescues on mountains, stupid ass arogant people like yourself. You probably either have a lot of money and don't give two shitts about anyone else, or you really just don't have a clue. We should allow DUI drivers on the road also, and rape, because some people don't have a problem with that either. You really just don't get it. Absolute asshole!!! I think you were the same one argueing with me on the gun issue also. Do you just like to come on here and argue stupid points? If I see you on a large mountain in tennis shoes climbing up ice I will personally call you a dumbass.

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Last edited by Bombchaser on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

I can spend all day looking for one if that is what you want. Basically what you want me to say is you should be able to be a total dumbass on the mountain, and F everyone else. Why do we need to keep beating this to the ground? Why do you think you should be able to F over the sport for everyone else, cost everyone else more money, and put lives at risk for your own arogance? Do you think you should be able to fall and hurt someone else and that other person should just suck up all the costs and possibly go through life disabled? Mount Shasta is not a remote mountain, it has many other climbers on it. If you fall and take me out and your wearing tennis shoes, I might just kill you myself if I'm not incapacitated. People like you need to keep your arogance and ego in check. It wil come around and bite you in the ass one day. Especailly if you yourself fall and the media gets a hold of this forum like they did on the Mount Hood rescue this past winter.

In other words no, you have no example and your original statement was incorrect. Falling and slipping and injuring/killing someone else is NOT an example of criminal negligence in this country based on current case law.

My god dude you are an idiot......I posted incidents where someone was negligent or reckless or stupid!!! NO I DON'T HAVE ONE!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't mean a person can't sue!!!! You can still continue to act like a DUMBASS!!!!!! You win!!!! Go and continue to climb in your tennis shoes. Damn, you are exactly why people get so pissed over the rescues on mountains, stupid ass arogant people like yourself. You probably either have a lot of money and don't give two shitts about anyone else, or you really just don't have a clue. We should allow DUI drivers on the road also, and rape, because some people don't have a problem with that either. You really just don't get it. Absolute asshole!!! I think you were the same one argueing with me on the gun issue also. Do you just like to come on here and argue stupid points? If I see you on a large mountain in tennis shoes climbing up ice I will personally call you a dumbass.

My goodness! I simply brought up the point that climbing a mountain without the proper gear is not a criminal act in this country, even if you injure another. You said it was, so I asked for an example. Wouldn't it be easier to acknowledge that you make an incorrect statement, rather than begin a personal attack?

I didn't say you couldn't sue. That is a civil matter. But you were very specific. You said criminally negligent.

How does me wanting rescues to be free indicate I have a lot of money? BTW I've climbed Shasta 4 times, been on the mountain at least 8 (not always for summit attempts). Only once without crampons, to Green Butte when there was no snow. So don't pretend that just because I think SAR should remain free that you can ascertain anything about my personal climbing habits.

Try to relax!

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:If a person disregards all of this and falls due to slipping on ice in tennis shoes and injures or kills someone else, they could be held criminally negligent in a court of law.

Do you have one example of this? I'd ask for one on Shasta, but one anywhere in the US will do.

From what I have obtained so far on the latest Shasta rescue, I will use that one.

http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 07/6210338


Here is a list of rescues on Shasta, there are mnay examples in it:

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... /accidents
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... er_Dog.htm

Last edited by Bombchaser on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
I seems I have to ask the question again...

Do you have one example, anywhere, of a person disregarding all of this and slipping, falling, and injuring or killing someone else, AND being found criminally negligent as a result, as you claim a court of law would do? Just ONE example???

I am not asking if an accident as ever occurred. In your example of this person being found criminally negligent, what was their sentence?

I can spend all day looking for one if that is what you want. Basically what you want me to say is you should be able to be a total dumbass on the mountain, and F everyone else. Why do we need to keep beating this to the ground? Why do you think you should be able to F over the sport for everyone else, cost everyone else more money, and put lives at risk for your own arogance? Do you think you should be able to fall and hurt someone else and that other person should just suck up all the costs and possibly go through life disabled? Mount Shasta is not a remote mountain, it has many other climbers on it. If you fall and take me out and your wearing tennis shoes, I might just kill you myself if I'm not incapacitated. People like you need to keep your arogance and ego in check. It wil come around and bite you in the ass one day. Especailly if you yourself fall and the media gets a hold of this forum like they did on the Mount Hood rescue this past winter.

In other words no, you have no example and your original statement was incorrect. Falling and slipping and injuring/killing someone else is NOT an example of criminal negligence in this country based on current case law.

My god dude you are an idiot......I posted incidents where someone was negligent or reckless or stupid!!! NO I DON'T HAVE ONE!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't mean a person can't sue!!!! You can still continue to act like a DUMBASS!!!!!! You win!!!! Go and continue to climb in your tennis shoes. Damn, you are exactly why people get so pissed over the rescues on mountains, stupid ass arogant people like yourself. You probably either have a lot of money and don't give two shitts about anyone else, or you really just don't have a clue. We should allow DUI drivers on the road also, and rape, because some people don't have a problem with that either. You really just don't get it. Absolute asshole!!! I think you were the same one argueing with me on the gun issue also. Do you just like to come on here and argue stupid points? If I see you on a large mountain in tennis shoes climbing up ice I will personally call you a dumbass.

My goodness! I simply brought up the point that climbing a mountain without the proper gear is not a criminal act in this country, even if you injure another. You said it was, so I asked for an example. Wouldn't it be easier to acknowledge that you make an incorrect statement, rather than begin a personal attack?

I didn't say you couldn't sue. That is a civil matter. But you were very specific. You said criminally negligent.

How does me wanting rescues to be free indicate I have a lot of money? BTW I've climbed Shasta 4 times, been on the mountain at least 8 (not always for summit attempts). Only once without crampons, to Green Butte when there was no snow. So don't pretend that just because I think SAR should remain free that you can ascertain anything about my personal climbing habits.

Try to relax!

And I never stated this was based on case law. I simply stated that it could happen. It could also be on a civil level. When you constantly come on here bringing up the same damn points it gets rediculous after a while. I can find many cases involving negligence involving other activities that could easily apply here. Negligence is negligence regardless of what sport or activity it is. Why are people defending this guys actions when it is so obvious he should not have been up there? This has to be one of the most rediculous arguements I have ever gotten into. It would be like me arresting a DUI and everyone saying he should not be arrested or pay because no one else was on the road and he didn't hurt anyone. It makes no sense. When you come on here backing this guys actions, or implying that you are, then too me it puts you on the same level as that guy. If I went out and marched in a NAZI parade people would assume I supported this and I would open myself up to personal attacks. If you truely think this guy or yourself should be allowed to climb up an ice covered peak in tennis shoes, then I stand by my statements. I guess mountian climbing has just turned into running up and down mountains to obtain a summit so they can add it this site.

Gary Schenk wrote:So this guy was an idiot, everyone seems to agree. Was Mugs Stump an idiot, too?

Mugs Stump wasn't wearing tennis shoes plus he knew his gear and what he was doing when the freak deal of the serac collapsed on top of him after falling into the crevasse that eventually took him

Besides, Mugs was on some hairy gigs where he walked out on his own with some narly injuries.

Just like Alex Lowe, Tomaz Humar etc etc etc...

And Gary, Mugs knew how to acquire and read the many different maps that were readily available to him for all the beta req'd for the areas of his routes/climbs.

Edit: Additions

Ahhh... the word 'could'. Yes, I suppose in theory you could be held negligent, even if it has never happened before. Very unlikely in a common law system such as ours, perhaps even impossible in practice, but point taken.