I don't know Brian, never read the article and don't really care for climbing grades other than to point out to me what may be beyond my ability. I climb up to 5.8.
I don't care and don't give a shit to climb harder. I'm satisfied with 5.8.(ish).
But what Chief said earlier is think is a valid and hidden point in this argument. If you haven't climbed a route, you have no business rating it. This is, correct me if I'm wrong,
a bit of a stitch/irritation among many on this site (myself included) of folks putting up pages and ratings on mountains/routes they have never climbed. Imagine how embarrased you'd be if someone repeats a 5.10 spliter out in say, Onion Creek, a page you created for SP only to be called out by the next person who climbs it, who reports that it's full of good jugs & buckets. Obviously NOT a 5.10.
If you haven't climbed a route, have no DIRECT experience with the route, then simply, don't post it. Bad beta or incorrect beta in climbing can be...hazardous.

I get that ratings: French, YDS, Canadian, European, New Zealand even Colorado/California will never have comparible degrees. One's climbing prowess and ability will ALWAYS subjectify the
difficulty..period. Is it just me or do too many people take climbing ratings as hard fact instead of the 'guidelines' to quote Captain Barboussa, that they should be viewed as?

Getting back to Brian...Dude. Seriously. Lighten up. I'm willing to bet everyone on this site has had the unpleasent fortune to encounter rancor from folks who don't know how
to relate opinions. Sure, it hurts. It gets one pissed off. Deal with it. I've had my share from one guy (in particular) when I was first getting started with 'online' stuff from the now
defunct site, Fourteenerworld (Kevin Craig, anybody). I almost quit and threw a fit like yourself. A good friend (Sarah T) talked me out of it and I rethought the whole thing. She was right.
I'm not the one with a problem. The other person is. What I had to take away from the whole spoiled, rotten thing is that some people simply aren't as tactful about parleying opinions, advice
or beta as others. Some people ask VERY pointed questions. It also made me rethink & question WHAT I post...in terms of technical beta. Fact of life. I've gone through the same thing on 14ers.com.
In fact, what I've learned, is folks who are more callous are actually the ones you want to learn from anyway!!!
Why? Because they don't get bogged down by the bullshit politics. They climb for the simple sake of climbing. As it should be.

Best piece of advice for what you SHOULD have done...is walk away. Walk away for a while & let your jets cool down.
By reacting "off the hip" like you did, you actually, in the end, did a dis-service to everyone on this site. I've reacted the same way on 14ers.com. I pulled down ALL my trip reports. That's
something I now regret highly.
Growing a thick skin is only going to come through acknowledging the acidic comments, understanding them and using them for your benefit. Sink or swim, buddy.

Put the pages back up, let Matt do this, apologize to the folks involved, humility/sincerity goes a LONG way...and get on with your life. Irritate your wife by getting out more and do something like say, CLIMB.

Kiefer Thomas wrote:humility/sincerity goes a LONG way...and get on with your life.

Agreed.

The truly respected members of ANY site are the ones who admit their mistakes, own up to them, and move on (just ask the Chief --- I love you Rick, just playing). It's not the smartest guy or the best climber or the guy with the best internet one liners that garner respect in my book. Its the ones that are respectful, humble, generous, and positive. You have a real opportunity to turn a negative into a positive here and I think people will respect you if you do. We've all had our feathers ruffled before and some of us have done things we wished we didn't. That's natural. Just step away as Kiefer says, collect yourself, deep breath, and get back in the game. Long term... it's the better decision.

Good luck either way...

mrchad9 wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:So your response to someone disagreeing with you is to pitch a fit and start deleting content that so many others could have gotten benefit from? It was a nice article, not that it matters now. Just because one person doesn't like it is no reason to take your toys and go home. You wanted it to provoke thought did you not?

And when you feel someone is rude to you at work, do you turn around and erase your hard drive and quit your job?

Poor form from you Brian. Grow up.

Doesn't sound to me like you read all that the wrote. From reading what he wrote I got the impression that he had not taken this action in haste. I certainly don't support those who pitch a fit and delete all of their content and leave, but sometimes one can only take so much crap and a site is just no longer worth it. Everyone here is not as thick-skinned as some of us and, like any site, we have our share of bullies.

I read all that he wrote. I also read the posts on the latest article that apparently pushed him over the edge. Someone simply disagreed with him, and he didn't like it. He wasn't personally attacked or defiled anything. He's just pitching a fit.

Do you really expect to post an article on climbing ratings and get everyone to agree with what you wrote? WTF?!?!?

And Josh, there wasn't any 'bozo picking apart the work saying it was useless'. Cerrainly not on this article and most likely not on the other he referenced. That is mearly Brian's interpretation of his articles not getting unanimous consent. I don't know how this fellow is going to make anywhere with that kind of attitude.

Now there's one we can definitely agree on!!!

I will admit; I took him at his word, when it came to the history - I hadn't followed the drama.

I do know from a previous forum site I had belonged to that sometimes the bullying can just be too much and the only answer, even though you don't want to do it, is to just walk away. It is a hard thing to do because you have let the bullies win, but sometimes for your own sanity you just have to do it.

I don't mean this in regard to anyone here in in particular, but many of us need to learn how to give constructive criticism. When I first joined, a member who had created many pages here in the east criticized a page another menber had done on a mountain here. The criticsm did not offer any helpful info, it just pointed to what the author believed was too little info. It complained about the lack of photos, but offered none - and the mountain in question is not a very photogenic one. That simply wasn't constructive. It got me pissed enough that I helped the page owner out, but that still doesn't make it constructive. We should all (myself included) ask ourselves when we criticize whether or not what we are offering is constructive.

mrchad9 wrote:And Josh, there wasn't any 'bozo picking apart the work saying it was useless'.

I said that based on the following quote by Brian:

Legpowered wrote:I was told by one member rudely that I my ideas were basically garbage and that only someone from California who had climbed at Tahquitz Rock had any right to create such an article.

With Parofes he was told in a very negative way that his content was of no value to the site (articles). I wouldn't feel too good if I put a huge effort and did a lot of research and was told off like that. However Fletch brings up a very important point about the integrity of the post. So it all comes down to how we approach people when giving criticism. Whether thick skinned or not, no one likes someone telling you that your content is garbage. Even if it is true. Was this a scenario where corrections could have been made? Some people are more sensitive than others. People say "that person needs to just deal with it". That's fine in a ideal world. But the truth is that some folks won't or they really don't want to have to deal with rude behavior. It's the same with homeless people (no offense to them), telling them to get a job is not going to make them get a job! I'm just trying to be down to earth here.

I personally ENJOY positive criticism. It's the attitudes that are the problem, not the intentions behind them.

The Chief wrote:I have seen 5.12 Gym/Sporties flail and bail on many of Kamp's 5.10's in TM. Funniest things to watch actually.

I listened to a "5.12" climber talking about how easy a route was going to be while we were on the approach. His partner mentioned that the bragger had never been outside the gym. Ran into them later on in the day. Turns out the 5.12 climber did bail. On the class 3 approach. Exposure off to the side of the approach scared him off.

Miguel Carmona and I were at Hermit Spire sometime in the late 80s. We spent the summer there. Never saw anyone. But one day, we ran into two people starting a short climb called "American Kennel Club". I knew Herb Laeger but the other, older man with round glasses, he said hi I'm Bob and started to scramble up to the first bolt. Just ran up it, clipped it and off he went. I though it couldn't be...But Herb said, yeh that's Kamps. So we watched a bit, Herb went up and they soon dissapeared into the wall. Next day we walked by that route and Miguel said, let's try it...An hour later, we gave up trying to lead it, never having to reach the first bolt ( a bit high off the deck without using cheater stick). When I got home I looked Mark Robinson's home guide and found the route rated 12A, crux was reaching the 1st bolt. Kamps was 62 then. He was grades above most people...

The Chief wrote:

Josh Lewis wrote: I'm just trying to be down to earth here.

And this of course coming from your deep 20 years of being on this planet and experience dealing with thousands of people.... correct?

Josh Lewis wrote:I personally ENJOY positive criticism. It's the attitudes that are the problem, not the intentions behind them.

Ditto my post above.

Some people have learned a lot at 20; others never learn as much in their entire life.

I listened to a "5.12" climber talking about how easy a route was going to be while we were on the approach. His partner mentioned that the bragger had never been outside the gym. Ran into them later on in the day. Turns out the 5.12 climber did bail. On the class 3 approach. Exposure off to the side of the approach scared him off.

'5.12 gym' climber is not a '5.12 all around' climber. I don't think there are many 5.11 climbers who can OS 5.11 overhanging face, OW, slab, finger cracks, and 5.11 chimneys. Not many at all.

Works both ways too. There are so many 'crack guru TRAD climbers' that like to talk down sport climbers on internet forums, who are scared shitless on 5.10a sport climbs. Seen it with own eyes too.

Bottom line, shut up and go climb something you like...no one cares.

Dude, I via ferrata 5.12.

BOOM!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0[/youtube]

mconnell wrote:

The Chief wrote:I have seen 5.12 Gym/Sporties flail and bail on many of Kamp's 5.10's in TM. Funniest things to watch actually.

I listened to a "5.12" climber talking about how easy a route was going to be while we were on the approach. His partner mentioned that the bragger had never been outside the gym. Ran into them later on in the day. Turns out the 5.12 climber did bail. On the class 3 approach. Exposure off to the side of the approach scared him off.

Reminds me of the 13 climber from CA who was challenged by someone in the media that he couldn't climb Everest...he instantly stated that would be an extremely easy task after all it is a walk up

He admitted defeat and suffered huge amounts of humiliation and criticism when he couldn't even make it up Orizaba...over 10,000 feet lower than Everest!

Legpowered wrote:Mrchad you make a lot of judgments about me and have some harsh words but you dont know the full story, so please reserve your judgment.

NEWSFLASH FOR BRIAN: If you don't want people to make judgements about you and want to claim they don't know the full story, then do not make a long, rambling, 'LOOK AT ME' goodbye post that supposedly doesn't have the full story in it!