+0.5

gabriele wrote:Italy is the only nation that "has" all the Alps, France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia are in share, each having only a small part of the range.

That's an interesting analysis, never thought about such comparison according to the variety of environments. However, I think Austria also has a fair variety with most rock types and kind of terrain (Austria has got areas with granitic peaks, tell me if am I wrong ?), as well as some Dolomites-like regions even if they can't compare with all the splendor of the real Dolomites. France also has got a big share if you go until the south end. The Vercors, Verdon regions and so have meridional climates, limestone wall which, despite not always very similar with the Dolomites, are worth mention (turn it opposite, Italy perhaps doesn't have regions like the Vercors). But I see another important detail, tell me again if I'm wrong but talking Alpinism, one important discipline is glaciers, of course Italy do have some nice samples of them, but perhaps none comparable to the "seas of ice" that can be seen in Swiss and the north of the French Alps.

gabriele wrote:I think that nowhere else in the world we can find such variety of kind of summits, rocks, nature etc. in a so short (~600 kw wide) range.

In the world, as Diego said who can be sure. Been in New Zealand ? Me neither not, however I think speaking mountain variety in a small area there is here a competitor. But closer to the Alps, forgive me again for repeating but what about the Pyrenees : 400km long. No glacier but limestone, canyons, granite, lakes, green atmosphere on the north, mediterranean on the south, rains in the West, drought on the East...
Remove the Pyrenees and have a go in the Massif Central, no equal when it comes about geology. Go East and peer into the Carpathians, good variety too overthere despite more than 600km..

p.s: you omitted the German Alps. Mvs will be angry

visentin wrote:.. I think Austria also has ... France also has ... Italy ... none comparable to the "seas of ice" that can be seen in Swiss and the north of the French Alps.

sure, I didn't mean that Italy has all, I told that ALPS have all that can give satisfaction also to all the extreme climbers writing here

EDIT : oops I forgot this little wall that is only 2600m of difference in elevation ...


while this one

is a little smaller

visentin wrote:p.s: you omitted the German Alps. Mvs will be angry

Michael will never be angry with me, we share a big love for Alps (and have both climbed some amusing routes)

No offense taken about the German Alps! They are beautiful country, but we are talking about the range as a whole here, which is very interesting, and the grandest country is all to the south.

Indeed Austria is under appreciated, especially from a rock climbing point of view. The Wilder Kaiser for example, it may not come close to the Dolomites in size, but for quality, history and difficulty can go one for one with it's larger cousin. The climbing around Berchtesgaden (Germany again) can reach 20 pitches of 5.10 or harder, this is no slouch!

Because of it's geographic position it's true that Italy can't have big "sea of ice" glaciers, but witness the south side of Mont Blanc for the fiercest alpine terrain in the range! And peaks like the Ortler and Koenigspitze, usually ignored due to their eastern location have serious 1000+ meter ice walls.

I've written a lot here about the Dolomites and how amazing they are, no need for me to re-hash that. But I was super impressed by the expanse of granitic rock and alpine climbing in Allefroide and La Grave a few weeks ago. Who needs Chamonix? The alps of the Dauphine have long approaches, plenty of solitude, and granite to weep over. I think it continues to be interesting on the Italian side too, and less known.

I got real interested in New Zealand for a while, and I'll bet that place is amazing. But from everything I heard, it's not a great rock climbing range. There are some areas, but it seems like there you'll have more fun on big snow/ice climbs.

I guess what I'm jazzed about is that the alps let you go from those "seas of ice" to sea cliff climbing in less than a day of driving, and you've got every flavor of climbing (or hiking, sorry to be so climbing-centric) in between. You can also travel in relative luxury (huts with wine, lifts) or spurn that stuff and the crowds that go with them. Having visited a few areas several times, it's become clear that I'll never run out of goals in those spots, and the list of things to do just keeps growing. You can say that about plenty of places...I felt similar enthusiasm in the Cascades...but in that smaller range I knew I'd have to travel ever further north for that feeling of boundless new terrain. And with that knowledge came the depressing afterthought of extensive brush-fields, helicopter flights, and just sheer difficulty getting to the high alpine terrain in that country north of Whistler I'd be drawn to. Anyway, if we move back there one day I guess I just laid out my 20 year plan. .

BTW, I also just got back from a great 5 day hike with my wife and kids in the Dolomites, so that is another reason I'm excited about these possibilities. Anyway, it's been a fun summer and now I can think of few things more fun to do than sit around with you guys and jaw about the relative strengths and weaknesses of our ranges.

knoback wrote:Stupid Alps, what with all the huts and climbing and access. North America is lots better. Ten mile bushwacks, -30 C, continental snowpack, grizzly bears, mosquitos, black flies, 50 lbs. pack are character builders. That's why we're so much better over here. I'm never going to the Alps. Until I have the time. And the money. OK, as soon as I possibly can.

Laughing my ass off... I've always had these same schizo feelings about it...now I live here though and got soft

knoback wrote:That's why we're so much better over here. I'm never going to the Alps.

Yeap, man. You're right. Don't move your ass to across the big water. Why move ? You live in the Paradise, isn't it ?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-passes-debt-limit-bill/2011/08/02/gIQAIp2kpI_story.html?hpid=z1

knoback wrote:Stupid Alps...

This is a special dedication for you from Lily Allen. And me. With love...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4fJhbRL1g

Marmaduke wrote:Diego and Josh- give it a rest for cryin' out loud.

Ok ok! My last post was talking about a much cheaper solution.

gabriele wrote:... but if you don't think Alps are the best .. no problems, Himalaya is ready to get all your money

So true! Well now I see why the expense factor is thrown out. As my brother says mountaineering is for rich people (our version of rich is being able to afford the things most people can). For me it's determination that is why I can climb mountains as well as nice people.

knoback wrote:Stupid Alps, what with all the huts and climbing and access. North America is lots better. Ten mile bushwacks, -30 C, continental snowpack, grizzly bears, mosquitos, black flies, 50 lbs. pack are character builders. That's why we're so much better over here. I'm never going to the Alps. Until I have the time. And the money. OK, as soon as I possibly can.

Is that the places you're talking about ?

mvs wrote:..and now I can think of few things more fun to do than sit around with you guys and jaw about..

Lucky you !

Oh wow, what a discussion

Hey Michael, when did you climb Obergabelhorn and Zinalrothorn?

I was roaming the Wallis mountains for one week between 15. and 23. july with a friend - the weather was changing every half day and there was much fresh snow on the high mountains, so we omitted Zinalrothorn and Rimpfischhorn and went to Weißmies, Breithorn (oh yes ....with about another 100 of "climbers" who all started at Klein Matterhorn and nearly collapsed below the summit - we did all the ascent starting at Zermatt) and Castor (0,5 m of fresh snow and a marvellous view to the Appenin range). Even a one day trip to Augstbordhorn above Rhone valley with several hailstorms during that day was kind of fun and you had tons of beautiful wildflowers everywhere.

So everybody, keep the fire burning because: for us - mountains are the best

Very nice! Definitely agree, mountains are the best! It was Obergabelhorn on July 15th, and Zinalrothorn on the 16th. Then it was time to head for home. Hiking down on the 17th in the morning, we saw the weather deteriorating, at least for a while. Glad you got some summits too!

selinunte01 wrote:Oh wow, what a discussion

Who doesn't like these friendly humoristico-chauvinist tussles ?

visentin wrote:

selinunte01 wrote:Oh wow, what a discussion

Who doesn't like these friendly humoristico-chauvinist tussles ?

It might not be obvious - but three smileys always tend to be a little bit ironic ?????

By the way, Pyrenees are the best (because I will stay near Argelès - Gazost from 27.08. to 10.09. and this has nothing to do with pilgrimage to Lourdes )

Maybe you'll meet with Gangolf, he's planning to stay not very far during the same period.
I think we can expect a bunch of new cool pages of Pyrenean peaks when both of you will be back :

We are moving to Switzerland in less then 3 weeks. Can't wait to experience the Apls firsthand and meet up with Summitpost folks in Europe. One way tickets bought, place to stay found, last farewell hike in the Sierra completed. Time to go!