travelin_light wrote:

The Chief wrote:"Gong Show" aint Wilderness and the standard that prevails there was in fact set by the locals.

The route that I was referring to not only impeded onto someone elses route, it employed bolting methods counter to the traditional long standing local ethics and an over abundance of bolts. Far more than any other route in that entire area had ever seen.

So, does that not raise the red flag of concern.

How can you say that there are an over abundance of bolts on a climb that you have never climbed Chief? Or are you actually saying the presence of bolts in an "area" or lack thereof, should determine if a legitimate and mostly protection-less feature is FA'd or not? Very interesting. Wonder how bolts ever showed up in the Alabama Hills, or anywhere for that matter.

On another note, your Keeler Needle story from the other thread is quite interesting BTW. And hardly believable. Sounds like you already know who did it though.

The route on LPP was a serious intrusion on the areas ethics when a PD was introduced to put the thing up in a designated Wilderness Area that is clearly marked so, both at the Trail Head and on the Map. The fact of "if" the route is a potentially "Quality" climb or not, has absolutely nothing to do with anyone walking in and bolting up the Wilderness with power drills. Anyone can PD a route...anyone. That is a well established fact throughout the lower 48 and in areas of Europe.

It is no better than a dog coming into ones yard and pissing all over in order to let the other dogs know they were there.

A prereq for any FA should be to play by the rules that are set by the areas landowner, regardless who they are. It's called RESPECT! That is done with doing ones planning and homework prior to even going in and getting on the rock.

The Keeler issue is one that Doug, the owner of the Whitney Portal store and DK, the BC USFS Ranger have in fact verified with binoc's ten days ago. Feeling guilty?

Oh yeah, the A-Hills are about as much a prime example of a pristine Wilderness environment as downtown Hollywood is one for paradise. The designation of that area as a "Sport" area was well established due to it's easy access and previous discussions/permission given with the landowner in charge, the BLM. Raliegh got permission from the BLM before starting his deal their. Mike came along after the fact and followed in Raliegh's footsteps.

Do your homework dude, you might just learn something about the fine ethics of FAing. Walking into a secluded designated Wilderness Area with a PD and a bunch of bolts, is not one of em....

The Chief wrote:

travelin_light wrote:

The Chief wrote:"Gong Show" aint Wilderness and the standard that prevails there was in fact set by the locals.

The route that I was referring to not only impeded onto someone elses route, it employed bolting methods counter to the traditional long standing local ethics and an over abundance of bolts. Far more than any other route in that entire area had ever seen.

So, does that not raise the red flag of concern.

How can you say that there are an over abundance of bolts on a climb that you have never climbed Chief? Or are you actually saying the presence of bolts in an "area" or lack thereof, should determine if a legitimate and mostly protection-less feature is FA'd or not? Very interesting. Wonder how bolts ever showed up in the Alabama Hills, or anywhere for that matter.

On another note, your Keeler Needle story from the other thread is quite interesting BTW. And hardly believable. Sounds like you already know who did it though.

The route on LPP was a serious intrusion on the areas ethics when a PD was introduced to put the thing up in a designated Wilderness Area that is clearly marked so, both at the Trail Head and on the Map. The fact of "if" the route is a potentially "Quality" climb or not, has absolutely nothing to do with anyone walking in and bolting up the Wilderness with power drills. Anyone can PD a route...anyone. That is a well established fact throughout the lower 48 and in areas of Europe.

It is no better than a dog coming into ones yard and pissing all over in order to let the other dogs know they were there.

A prereq for any FA should be to play by the rules that are set by areas landowner, regardless who they are. It's called RESPECT!

The Keeler issue is one that Doug, the owner of the Whitney Portal store and DK, the BC USFS Ranger have in fact verified with binoc's ten days ago. Feeling guilty?

Oh yeah, the A-Hills are about as much a prime example of a pristine Wilderness environment as downtown Hollywood is one for paradise. The designation of that area as a "Sport" area was well established due to it's easy access and previous discussions/permission given with the landowner in charge, the BLM. Raliegh got permission from the BLM before starting his deal their. Mike came along after the fact and followed in Raliegh's footsteps. Do your homework dude, you might just learn something about the find ethics of FAing.

Chief, just wate intill Boxer or Fienstein decides to move the wilderness boundary out a few miles more..... And there is "wilderness" less than 8 miles from Hollywood and Vine. Go figure.



Remember it's not the Power Drill that's bad, rather the user, when they do bad things with it.

Guyzo wrote:Remember it's not the Power Drill that's bad, rather the user, when they do bad things with it.

And what are "bad things", in your opinion Guy?

And please don't start this Wilderness "IF" shit. The law is the law. Just cuz one does not agree with it, doesn't give them the right to go an do as they damn well please.

A prime example of this attitude is presently happening in the Hulk Area. Bad stuff has happened there and the landowners are pissed, to say the least!

Got an issue with the law, then follow the road that is set and one needs to be followed in order to change it. Just as I have and am doing on a continuous basis with several different local climbing issues.

Actions such as the one above on LPP, only hurt individuals that are trying to change things, the right way.

Chief, are you sure you aren't getting confused with Crimson Wall 12-, it's a bolted route R of the Harding Route put up in the early 90s.

Also, we already owned up to our mistakes in Tuttle Creek, and nobody wishes to rehash them. Apparently you do. Do you really need attention that bad? Do you really need to spend every waking second of your life sermonizing on Summitpost forums? You seriously need to get a life. Here's a suggestion: go climbing.

The Chief wrote:

Guyzo wrote:Remember it's not the Power Drill that's bad, rather the user, when they do bad things with it.

And what are "bad things", in your opinion Guy?

Shitty roots.

Lots of unnecessary bolts.

Bolts next to good gear placements.

Squeze jobs.

Chopped holds.

shitty climbing spots, because of all the extra bolts sprayed in them crummy squeze job climbs with the chopped holds.

Pretty bad IMHO.

I will grant you this fact, Power drills make it very easy to make "shitty roots".

But in the end it's the Climber or Climbers who make these roots shitty. Not the drill.

poorboy44 wrote:Chief, are you sure you aren't getting confused with Crimson Wall 12-, it's a bolted route R of the Harding Route put up in the early 90s.

I know all about that route... Steele/Brown etal.

BTW, that was all HAND DRILLED.

The BC Ranger is the one that "heard" the drill/s early last month from Iceberg. He saw folks up there but was on a SAR call out and could not hang around to investigate. He returned a week later during the big storm and could not access the area till ten days ago.

He called me and verified the new bolts. He mentioned that this and last years LPP gig, are examples of issues that are coming to light regarding the PD's.

This dude is the coolest dude out there. But, and a big but, his Supervisor is frequent visitor of that entire area as well and is well informed as to the ongoings within the Whitney Region/LPP/Tuttle Creek/Langley areas. It's all his responsibility. Acitivity such as this, only hurts all the folks out there that play by the rules.

I am rehashing all this for one and one reason only...It's called ACCESS!

I live and play here... most that are breaking the rules, don't.

I got lots of Access legal issues pending, and shit like this just kills all the efforts and hardwork that some are knee deep in. It really sucks when the Landowner points their finger at behavior that kills your work and they tell ya to basically fk off.

Doing ones homework as to the ongoing ACCESS battles and issues, prior going into any area and putting up routes, is all part of the ethics of FAing.

we have a very strict ethical code here in the uk, no bolts on mountain crags period ! we have sea cliffs with ironmongery e.g pegs which some are 20/30 yrs old and i`m confused at why some climbers say that they should not be replaced thease pegs are really rusty and somebody will die soon if they are not replaced ! established routes have good belay stances, bomber wires or threads, coming back to the main topic i believe that it is up to local ethics which dictates whether to bolt or not, most or every crag has a guidebook stating what the ethics are and should be adhered to ! i hope my post has not confused you to much gulp

mills.... you say folks would get mad, if old fixed pins were changed out for new fixed pins?

Thats' weird.... But I understand cause if Joe Brown his self pounded it in, it's historic.

I am confused when you say "No Bolts" anywhere????

I have seen "sport climbs" in England. A place named "Chedder" if I am correct.

And I think the whole Ethic of "No Bolts" is a good thing because It has kept places like Grit Stone world class, with world class climbs.

Mills, thank you for posting.

gk

So, here's a question. Mike and I went to this route http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock ... ri-la.html , and Mike got the third pitch clean ONLY on gear (I didn't have a chance being slammed with the flu and was happy to lead the first two pitches feeling like I was). He did it clean and mentioned the gear was really good. When I followed him, I concurred with what he said. On pitch 2 I found the bolts to be irrelavent (since I could place gear there).

Then what do you do with the bolts.... stay or do they go.

We aree going to ask this question to the F.A'ists and the community at large, but our feeling is that all but one of the bolts is totally irrelavent

chopping is an old school term.
The new term is called "erasing" the bolt.
The ASCA guys certified me on that stuff.

Just want some feedback from another forum on another site about a route, and I'll block out the names involved to protect them.....

"XXXXXXX would prefer the bolts stay in place. The tiny percent of climbers that want the pure trad challenge can ignore the protection bolts, while the majority of climbers will gladly clip them. The ease of protection, and sense of safety, will remain consistent throughout the entire route with the bolts in place(stuffing the other pitches with perfect, easy placements is consistent with clipping the series of bolts on pitch 3). I believe this was the rational for equipping the pitch with bolts - to make a more fun and doable route. XXXX probably never imagined HE would ever have the right gear to protect this pitch, even if the gear was available in stores at the time(I'd be curious to know the retail value of Mike's rack), and probably figured most other climbers would appreciate his decision to make this climb more accessible. I think he was mostly right. I know he never intended to upset or disappoint any purists that might later come along. He was motivated by the joy of climbing, and nothing else. If some bolts turn your smile upside down, judgments ensue, and you contemplate removing the bolts, you might be taking climbing too seriously, or focusing your purity inappropriately, like Jehova's witnesses going door to door proselytizing, or anti-abortionists blowing up clinics.

The righteous path that has been expressed by Josh and others has its place in climbing, but I am not sure that perfection of pure style is the purpose of climbing. Sometimes the righteous and gifted assume they have all the right answers, and God speaks only to them. Being true then becomes false.

"Everything looks perfect from far away." I think all those who care about climbing, other climbers, and Shangri-La should take a few steps back, where judgments, righteousness and criticism vanish. We are all more alike than different, so we should honor and respect eachother's decisions with the faith that we don't know everything about our purpose as climbers, and we're all doing what we think is right."

IMHO it the argument of not enough gear is a weak argument. If it was the case, then the routes in Indian Creek and Zion would all be bolted. Just buy, borrow, beg (but lets not steal though) the gear to do it if thats your choice. And Mike actually used my gear since I'm such a gear whore

I'll respect XXXX's wish and not remove any of them (ok, I'm upgrading the bolts at the 3rd pitch belay this weekend).

Thoughts, am I out of line in thinking that it is a weak excuse.

Lame excuse, CC you do what you feel is the best.

And you are correct when you point out the fact about Indian Creek climbs. No bolts on those babies and folks do take grounders.

So give US a TR ........

My attitude is that the individuals involved with the FA get the last say (unless the climbing community at a whole is in opposition with the decision) but I think it is a lame excuse

CC you are a part of the local climbing community, correct? Your not driving like 300 miles to climb this sucker are you?

If you do rip XXXXXX 's shit out you know just what is in store for you.

It is really a tough decision to make.

Good luck to you.

Should pins be removed or not even used if the route goes free?
I've seen a few harder lines that were old aid lines, you can tell they've been aided because of the pin scars. I've also come across old manky pins or star drives that have just become part of the climb...when do they get pulled?
I know folks like to do routes cleanly, but certain routes couldn't be done that way on the FA (Finger of Fate comes to mind). Because of pin scars, certain routes are now free climbable or can be sent cleanly, but are these routes manufactured?

I guess the main thought I'm trying to invoke is: when is it okay to badly scar the rock for the sake of climbing it?