I recognize the french sense of geography... :) Imho this is a non-debate. Mont Blanc is Mont Blanc, top of the Alps, Elbrus is Elbrus top of Caucasus. By definition, mountains (almost) always make borders between countries, and natural barriers (seas, oceans) between continents. Elbrus and Caucasus are somehow the barrier between Europe and central Asia, the same way the Alps divide northern and southern Europe.
Considering Elbrus in Europe or not in Europe will not move its position by one centimeter closer of further... This is Elbrus, it is so much different than Mont Blanc (well I've been on none... but from the descriptions certainly) otherwise why people would go there ? :) Thanks for this virtual travel which gives us a genuine feeling of how these regions look like, so different than the usual pragmatic "peak pages".
Thanks Erico.... always nice to have an input from a frenchman about the issue :)
Nicely written - our discussions will not move Elbrus anywhere... a nice area to visit, and nice mountain to climb...
Maybe, in a few years you will be able to bike up Elbrus, if the snow/glacier melt continues...
There is a guy (Belgian I think) called Bruno who did ride it down by bike (but not up !) Someone (Corax I think) posted the Youtube video in MBPost but I can't find it anymore.
I think that there is no comparison to Russia.... huge difference between between its people. A place where life for a honest man is very hard, much harder than for us, a former soviet union friends...
I had moments in my life where I was angry at Russians (as pretty much everyone in my country). My grandpa jailed, me standing in front of Lenin statue as a honor guar (had to), for forcing us doing such stupid stuff... but it is not their fault... the country is so different... nobody conquers them, winter is cruel, as well as the summers (I was dying during the 40 C heat in Moscow)...
I really think Jacek that there is no comparison when you say Russia.
There was once a rich discussion about the russians mentality on a french forum about poland. One poster wrote something which I believe to be quite true. Russians were never conquered by anyone, fortunately not by Hitler, but also neither by Napoleon with his school and familly laws system, neither Charlemagne with his latin alphabet. Russians subsequently always were rough people, not very keen in any kind of discipline, which explains why they always were ruled by tyrans. Too gentle leaders always gave place to tougher and more powerful one. It was true also during tsar times. Once a russian friend told me "Russia is a place where the meaning of a human being is less than some other places". Another friend from Moscow told me "Here, everything forbidden is impossible to do, and what you can do, you must do it".
Besides of that one must be aware that nowaday's Russia is a mozaic of merged culturally and linguistically different countries. This is very true in the Caucasus, but not only. There are tense relations with the Siberians. Nowadays with several generations passed and the country is more stable than it used to be, but such mosaics-countries always were hard to manage except by authority (ex-Yugoslavia gives an example).
Liba,
I'll never forget August 21st, 1968 I happened to spend in Prague. And I bet MOCKBA will agree with your conclusion. BTW I bet he'll be a great ski touring partner if you manage to lure him out of his Uinta hideout.
Like, everybody has been "programed" in a different way.
What about all the Russian immigrants coming to the U.S.?
Do you think because they have given up their "hard" ways,
that they have betrayed their countrymen ???
Something to think about. Guess everybody is different, and
the ultimate challenge would be to find common ground, such as
good old-fashioned European humor and body language.
Hi Erico... Agree with all the above. I noticed that people in Moscow complained a lot about Asians moving in... feeling that their city is being taken over... but then, it is the capital of a huge country - both Asian and European.
Hey Jacek, always nice to get a little reminder from ya! (In this case, that I haven't been to Uintas since early spring! In a usual summer we'd be all over the woods there looking for wild mushrooms, but this year we picked our fill in Alaska, no real use gathering even more when the freezer is full of them already).
Nice TR Liba, glad that the spirits of altitude and weather were smiling at you up there! And it's interesting to learn something new about, of all, places, my hometown. The SVO Aeroexpress - it used to depart from town from a really inconvenient terminal, and to have hours-long blackout mid-morning, but it looks like they moved the city terminal to Belorusskaya metro station now. And the trains run all day now. Cool. Just gotta remember that it arrives to SVO terminal F, which is miles away from the International terminals by a shuttle bus ... so very few international travelers use it.
As to today's Russia, and how the visitors filter their impressions through the lenses of pre-conceptions ... enough said. It is a vast and very diverse country and you may find everything, nice and ugly, anticipated and surprising, if you look long enough :) For my today's midsize-town American self, Moscow is a stunning metropolis, bustling, youthful, cosmopolitan, flaunting its wealth and energy, and sort of intimidating in a NYC kind of way. It changed a lot, but I still connect with her & love her :)
You are visiting wrong places... hahaha
I think that older people smell differently compared to the sweat and stink from exercise...+ nursing homes smell funny...
I'm glad to hear you got along well with Sergei!
Here are some photos from his Karakoram visit some years back. Amazing photos, but the site is a bit hard to navigate.
Eric/Visentin.
You may think about Bruno Sulcs, who cycled on the summit of Muztagh Ata?
"Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out,
They leave the West behind;
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout,
That Georgia's always on my my my my my my my mind.
I'm back in the U.S.S.R.
You don't know how lucky you are boy;
Back in the U.S.S.R. ..."
visentin - Jul 27, 2010 3:50 am - Voted 10/10
top of EuropeI recognize the french sense of geography... :) Imho this is a non-debate. Mont Blanc is Mont Blanc, top of the Alps, Elbrus is Elbrus top of Caucasus. By definition, mountains (almost) always make borders between countries, and natural barriers (seas, oceans) between continents. Elbrus and Caucasus are somehow the barrier between Europe and central Asia, the same way the Alps divide northern and southern Europe.
Considering Elbrus in Europe or not in Europe will not move its position by one centimeter closer of further... This is Elbrus, it is so much different than Mont Blanc (well I've been on none... but from the descriptions certainly) otherwise why people would go there ? :) Thanks for this virtual travel which gives us a genuine feeling of how these regions look like, so different than the usual pragmatic "peak pages".
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 27, 2010 9:17 am - Hasn't voted
Re: top of EuropeThanks Erico.... always nice to have an input from a frenchman about the issue :)
Nicely written - our discussions will not move Elbrus anywhere... a nice area to visit, and nice mountain to climb...
Maybe, in a few years you will be able to bike up Elbrus, if the snow/glacier melt continues...
visentin - Jul 27, 2010 9:26 am - Voted 10/10
Re: top of EuropeThere is a guy (Belgian I think) called Bruno who did ride it down by bike (but not up !) Someone (Corax I think) posted the Youtube video in MBPost but I can't find it anymore.
yatsek - Jul 27, 2010 5:22 am - Voted 10/10
Today'sRussia compared to the west of Europe, say Germany, is like Mexico or Brazil against Canada, isn't it?
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 27, 2010 9:05 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Today'sI think that there is no comparison to Russia.... huge difference between between its people. A place where life for a honest man is very hard, much harder than for us, a former soviet union friends...
I had moments in my life where I was angry at Russians (as pretty much everyone in my country). My grandpa jailed, me standing in front of Lenin statue as a honor guar (had to), for forcing us doing such stupid stuff... but it is not their fault... the country is so different... nobody conquers them, winter is cruel, as well as the summers (I was dying during the 40 C heat in Moscow)...
I really think Jacek that there is no comparison when you say Russia.
visentin - Jul 27, 2010 9:34 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Today'sThere was once a rich discussion about the russians mentality on a french forum about poland. One poster wrote something which I believe to be quite true. Russians were never conquered by anyone, fortunately not by Hitler, but also neither by Napoleon with his school and familly laws system, neither Charlemagne with his latin alphabet. Russians subsequently always were rough people, not very keen in any kind of discipline, which explains why they always were ruled by tyrans. Too gentle leaders always gave place to tougher and more powerful one. It was true also during tsar times. Once a russian friend told me "Russia is a place where the meaning of a human being is less than some other places". Another friend from Moscow told me "Here, everything forbidden is impossible to do, and what you can do, you must do it".
Besides of that one must be aware that nowaday's Russia is a mozaic of merged culturally and linguistically different countries. This is very true in the Caucasus, but not only. There are tense relations with the Siberians. Nowadays with several generations passed and the country is more stable than it used to be, but such mosaics-countries always were hard to manage except by authority (ex-Yugoslavia gives an example).
yatsek - Jul 27, 2010 10:11 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Today'sLiba,
I'll never forget August 21st, 1968 I happened to spend in Prague. And I bet MOCKBA will agree with your conclusion. BTW I bet he'll be a great ski touring partner if you manage to lure him out of his Uinta hideout.
lcarreau - Jul 28, 2010 1:15 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Today's...I felt a similar feeling when I visited SE Asia.
Like, everybody has been "programed" in a different way.
What about all the Russian immigrants coming to the U.S.?
Do you think because they have given up their "hard" ways,
that they have betrayed their countrymen ???
Something to think about. Guess everybody is different, and
the ultimate challenge would be to find common ground, such as
good old-fashioned European humor and body language.
My hat's off to you, Liba.
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Today'sHi Erico... Agree with all the above. I noticed that people in Moscow complained a lot about Asians moving in... feeling that their city is being taken over... but then, it is the capital of a huge country - both Asian and European.
Dmitry Pruss - Aug 3, 2010 12:49 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Today'sHey Jacek, always nice to get a little reminder from ya! (In this case, that I haven't been to Uintas since early spring! In a usual summer we'd be all over the woods there looking for wild mushrooms, but this year we picked our fill in Alaska, no real use gathering even more when the freezer is full of them already).
Nice TR Liba, glad that the spirits of altitude and weather were smiling at you up there! And it's interesting to learn something new about, of all, places, my hometown. The SVO Aeroexpress - it used to depart from town from a really inconvenient terminal, and to have hours-long blackout mid-morning, but it looks like they moved the city terminal to Belorusskaya metro station now. And the trains run all day now. Cool. Just gotta remember that it arrives to SVO terminal F, which is miles away from the International terminals by a shuttle bus ... so very few international travelers use it.
As to today's Russia, and how the visitors filter their impressions through the lenses of pre-conceptions ... enough said. It is a vast and very diverse country and you may find everything, nice and ugly, anticipated and surprising, if you look long enough :) For my today's midsize-town American self, Moscow is a stunning metropolis, bustling, youthful, cosmopolitan, flaunting its wealth and energy, and sort of intimidating in a NYC kind of way. It changed a lot, but I still connect with her & love her :)
yatsek - Aug 3, 2010 2:04 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Today'sWow, Dmitry, nice to hear you made it to Alaska at last!
Alpinist - Jul 27, 2010 10:56 am - Voted 10/10
Congratulations!Congratulations on your successful climb! I enjoyed reading your trip report.
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 29, 2010 12:34 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Congratulations!Thanks... wrote in in the plane while flying back from Russia, so still fresh memories.
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 29, 2010 12:35 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Hey! Not fair!You are visiting wrong places... hahaha
I think that older people smell differently compared to the sweat and stink from exercise...+ nursing homes smell funny...
Corax - Jul 27, 2010 3:26 pm - Voted 10/10
Small worldI'm glad to hear you got along well with Sergei!
Here are some photos from his Karakoram visit some years back. Amazing photos, but the site is a bit hard to navigate.
Eric/Visentin.
You may think about Bruno Sulcs, who cycled on the summit of Muztagh Ata?
Nice TR Liba :)
Liba Kopeckova - Jul 29, 2010 12:43 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Small worldThanks Janne... It was a great trip, but too short...waiting for your advice how to quit working and lead a life of a professional explorer. :)
visentin - Jul 30, 2010 2:16 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Small worldYes, find me the video please !
Corax - Jul 30, 2010 4:22 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Small worldThe page is down nowadays :(
lcarreau - Jul 28, 2010 12:14 pm - Voted 10/10
Gotta keep your comrades warm ..."Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out,
They leave the West behind;
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout,
That Georgia's always on my my my my my my my mind.
I'm back in the U.S.S.R.
You don't know how lucky you are boy;
Back in the U.S.S.R. ..."
The Beatles - 1968
rpc - Jul 28, 2010 1:04 pm - Voted 10/10
nice readI enjoyed it & esp. like the general impressions of the country you include. Great photos as usual.