Well, a worthier effort than the past ones for this mountain, but I don't know if we're quite there yet. Rather than a breezy description of the drive from Anchorage to McCarthy (and then a mention of Nabesna, from where almost nobody has EVER done St. Elias, I'm sure!), I think you would need to give at least some attention to Yakutat. And you'd need to find out a bit about the routes on the mountain, about which there are published sources. A couple of easy upgrades would be to post a real map that shows the glaciers, and to put in links to some people's real experiences on the mountain, such as this one: http://buckaroobinaries.com/stelias.html
So there were others who attempted to make a page for this mountain? I didn't know that. Thanks for the constructive criticism...I really do appreciate any advice. I've barely begun on this page and I will be updating many things over the coarse of the next week. I will be radically improving the approach directions and choices from Anchorage, I'll be adding brief route information for each route and adding real topographic maps. Rest assured, I have a long way to go. What I have here is just the beginning. I'd like to make this a really nice page overall.
Sounds good if completed. Yes, I think I remember two that got pulled down. You're off to a better start, but it's a big project. Gorgeous mountain, the highlight of many a flight from Anchorage to Juneau. Cheers.
Chugach mtn boy (and Scott) are correct that this mountain has (unsuccessfully) been put up at least twice before. I'll admit I'm no fan of putting up pages for peaks one hasn't climbed, especially for a peak like this one, but it seems you really want to make a good page, unlike some of the past ones, which were so awful it was almost funny except that someone could have gotten killed using the "information." If you decide to keep on with this page, I hope you'll incorporate what Chugach and Scott have shared. Cheers.
I've long felt that summitpost needed a Saint Elias page but I haven't been willing to put the time in to do it justice, so thank you for taking it on. The logo for the Alaskan Brewing Company's IPA has St Elias in the background if you're looking for more images. It's no surprise that information is sparse and climbs infrequent. I heard about some folks who tried to climb it and got 18 ft of snow in three days high on the mountain. Few are willing to put themselves through such harsh conditions
I enjoy your photos and pages, so please don't take this the wrong way.
This St Elias page looks pretty and has lots of information. Unfortunately much of the information is has is inaccurate and most of the remaining information really won't help one climb the mountain.
Personally, my own constructive critisism opinion would be that the page should be postponed to be created by someone who has a more intimate knowlege of the mountain.
Once again, this isn't meant to be an attack, but is only my opinion and I enjoy your other pages.
Scott,
Does anyone here have first hand experience on this mountain? I know we are not supposed to make mountain pages if we have not climbed the mountain in question however there have been less that 100 people to ever summit this one. I feel that the only way to get this mountain up on SP is for someone, or a group of people to combine resources and make an informative page. As I said before, I'm waiting for a few resources to get to me, which includes some first hand accounts of a few people who did climb it as well as a few books about the mountain itself and the routes. Once these get to me, I'll be revamping the page. Maybe I should have waited until I had all the info but I thought I'd get something started. If anyone else here on SP wishes to help make this page, send me a message.
Thanks Scott for the message. If you really believe Mountain pages should only be made by people who have climbed the mountain, and others agree with you, I can take the page down.
Matt
BTW, I like reading about your adventures and looking at your photos too!
Does anyone here have first hand experience on this mountain?
At least two SP members have climbed it (and several others have attempted it or other mountains in the same proximity), but neither are that active on SP. Gerry Roach is one of the SP members who has climbed it, but he isn't so active anymore.
I feel that the only way to get this mountain up on SP is for someone, or a group of people to combine resources and make an informative page.
The page has been on SP at least three times, so it is likely that eventually someone will put up another one sometime in the future.
Maybe I should have waited until I had all the info but I thought I'd get something started.
From a constructive criticism standpoint, as the page stands there are just too many inaccuracies on the page to make it useful. Here are some specific examples so you can see where I'm coming from:
Most people climbing the mountain in modern times base themselves out of Yakutat when making preparations for a plane to St Elias. It doesn’t make any sense to come from the other places you mention on the page. I assume you are copying some information that those towns might be good bases to get to parts of Wrangell-St Elias National Park, but keep in mind that the national park covers well over 20,000 square miles and the places you list to fly out of are actually hundreds of miles from Mount St Elias and not practical to use as a bush plane base to get there. Unless you already live in Anchorage, it also makes more sense to approach Yakutat from Juneau rather than Anchorage.
The comparisons about there being no Himalayan Peaks comparable to the rise of Mount Saint Elias are also inaccurate. Although of the peaks rising above 14,000 feet, St Elias is considered to be the second most difficult mountain (via its standard route) in the United States meeting that criteria, it may or may not be accurate to refer it as one of the most difficult climbs in the world.
The when to climb section is also inaccurate as well. While the first ascent was in late July, there wasn’t as much known about SE Alaska weather patterns back then and they did not use plane access, therefore modern climbers do not prefer that time period. April through June are considered to be the practical months to climb the mountain. Late July and August are considered to be much more dangerous and it’s usually impossible to land a plane on the glaciers then. The page indicates that June through August is the best time to climb St Elias.
Most of the other information on the page just isn’t useful for planning a climb.
I hope you can see where I’m coming from. I don’t mean to nitpick the page apart, but there just isn’t enough hard beta there to make it a useful page to use in planning a climb.
Once again, I only mean the above as constructive criticism and to point out the reasons behind my vote and why I think it needs improvement or a more intimate knowledge.
Best of luck.
juneauhiker - Jan 11, 2012 12:03 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive Critisism
Actually Matt is correct that some people go from Anchorage/McCarthy. St Elias Alpine Guides, which I believe is the only company that advertises St Elias trips, is based in McCarthy and they fly out from there. http://www.steliasguides.com/trips_mountaineering_mtstelias.htm
Sigh ... unfortunately Matt doesn't say "some people go from Anchorage/McCarthy." Instead, he makes no mention at all of the primary access, Yakutat. And he says "you can fly into" Glennallen, Chitina, and Nabesna, and then "from any of these four locations you can take a private plane to the heart of the National Park." The way most people would read this, he's implying there are connecting flights from Anchorage to Nabesna or Glennallen, and then people charter from there onto St. Elias. This is complete malarkey. I love some of Matt's pages, but really, before doing the St. Elias page he needs to at least come to Alaska and lay eyes on the mountain. And I'd be happy to help him when he does it!
If you all really insist I can delete the page. I will be in Alaska for an entire summer at some point in my life but until then...
I'm not here to make everyone angry. If you don't think I should make this page then let me know.
Matt, here's what I think, but I'm just one person. I think you are a talented contributor to SP. The pages you've written from firsthand experience are mostly great. But Mt. St. Elias is different--it's one of the half dozen mountains in the world with a legitimate claim to having the highest short-range base-to-summit rise (sea level to 18K in 7 miles) and its a gorgeous, iconic peak. It's as significant as Mt. Blanc or Denali. The SP tradition for peaks like that is that their pages are super-pages, full of good information and written by people with lots of knowledge of the mountain.
What you've written would be of no assistance to somebody who was thinking about climbing St. Elias, nor even to somebody who would like to enjoy St. Elias from below. In fact, a lot of the information is just wrong. Some of this could be fixed, I'm sure, but I still think the end product will fall below SP standards and YOUR standards until you've at least been to the area. You won't like hearing this now, but when you get here, you'll know what I mean and you'll be a little embarrassed by some of what you put on this page.
I love St. Elias and have thought about doing a page on it myself. But I haven't, because I'm not qualified. You're even less qualified than I am.
What I'd suggest is that you put this page into custom objects for a year or two till you can get up here. And when you come, by the way, I'd be completely delighted to help you pursue your explorations with beta, rides, whatever--but what I can't really get into is editing a page by a guy who is writing about this mountain site-unseen.
Another option that might be viable would be for you to convert the page to a general range page for the St. Elias Mountains. It wouldn't be a great range page, but I think doing that would be less presumptuous than taking on a specific iconic peak like this.
Finally, please don't take this personally. I admire you as an SP contributor--I just think this is a bridge too far for you at this point in your career. That will probably change in a few years.
"Another option that might be viable would be for you to convert the page to a general range page for the St. Elias Mountains."
Actually, I was thinking about doing that as I was initially making the page. I may actually go that route but for now, I'll change the page type, ultil I can decide how to approach my editing to be going on later this week and next week.
All good views and insights; especially concerning the need for more viable routes (Harvard Route/SW Ridge, Abruzzi Ridge, East Ridge). Like Scott said, at least 2 folks (SP) have climbed this peak. Since Gerry doesn't really repond to e-mails anymore (I've tried to contact him via 14erworld about unrelated topics to no avail), try getting a hold of Dave Hart. He's also here on SP. He's climbed it and I'm sure would lend some great advice and beta. Plus, I believe Gerry descended the South Ridge or South Buttress? I'm not sure but if he did, I'm pretty sure no one would use or consider it a 'standard route' in such terms.
I've been planning a trip to St. Elias for a few months now for hopefully an expedition next May (2012) with 2 other folks in Anchorage and Dave has been invaluable. IF, it actually comes together, I'll have tons of beta to add!
A mountain of this caliber and seriousness, like Chugach stated, needs someone with an eye to detail and specifics. But considering the lack of beta that's out there for a lot of the peaks in the Wrangell/St. Elias, you've definitely got your work cut out for ya.
My own take on Alaskan Peaks, if it doesn't already exist here on SP, make sure you have all your ducks in order before you commit to posting anything or at least do as what you stated by offering an apology to the effect that said page IS STILL a work in progress. My own belief is that folks know Alaska is a wild and uncharted place. The peaks up there are as serious & dangerous as anywhere else in the world if not more so because of the weather and sheer prominance. In so saying, people 'in the know' will scrutinize any submission related with a magnifying scope to ensure good, climbing beta is represented and representitive of said peaks. It's a wild frontier that many folks pass over for places like the Andes or Alps or Karakoram but none-the-less, respect its' sheer rawness, difficulty and beauty and want to see future pages do it justice. I hope all that makes sense.
Good luck in your future editing, Matt. I'll hold off voting for the time being but I'm definitely looking forward to the finished product!
-Kiefer
I have changed this page into an Area/Range page for the Saint Elias Mountains. I'm not done yet though as I still need to add the maps and some more background text. Bear with me. Thanks to all who have submitted input. Someday I will get out here!
Mount Bear was first climbed in 1951 by Alfred Baxter, Jr., Rupert Gates, and Jon Lindbergh.
I don't think it is entirely accurate to say the Robert Kennedy, with minimal climbing experience, was the leader of the first ascent of Mount Kennedy. He was led to the summit.
redsplashman23 - Jan 4, 2012 12:17 pm - Voted 10/10
Great Job!!I've seen many people attempt to write a page for this and have been unsuccessful. This peak is way overdue for a page. Great job!
Matt Lemke - Jan 4, 2012 9:57 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Great Job!!wow...thanks! Glad to have approval :)
chugach mtn boy - Jan 5, 2012 6:02 pm - Hasn't voted
HmmmWell, a worthier effort than the past ones for this mountain, but I don't know if we're quite there yet. Rather than a breezy description of the drive from Anchorage to McCarthy (and then a mention of Nabesna, from where almost nobody has EVER done St. Elias, I'm sure!), I think you would need to give at least some attention to Yakutat. And you'd need to find out a bit about the routes on the mountain, about which there are published sources. A couple of easy upgrades would be to post a real map that shows the glaciers, and to put in links to some people's real experiences on the mountain, such as this one: http://buckaroobinaries.com/stelias.html
Matt Lemke - Jan 5, 2012 6:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: HmmmSo there were others who attempted to make a page for this mountain? I didn't know that. Thanks for the constructive criticism...I really do appreciate any advice. I've barely begun on this page and I will be updating many things over the coarse of the next week. I will be radically improving the approach directions and choices from Anchorage, I'll be adding brief route information for each route and adding real topographic maps. Rest assured, I have a long way to go. What I have here is just the beginning. I'd like to make this a really nice page overall.
chugach mtn boy - Jan 5, 2012 7:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: HmmmSounds good if completed. Yes, I think I remember two that got pulled down. You're off to a better start, but it's a big project. Gorgeous mountain, the highlight of many a flight from Anchorage to Juneau. Cheers.
Bob Sihler - Jan 7, 2012 9:19 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: HmmmChugach mtn boy (and Scott) are correct that this mountain has (unsuccessfully) been put up at least twice before. I'll admit I'm no fan of putting up pages for peaks one hasn't climbed, especially for a peak like this one, but it seems you really want to make a good page, unlike some of the past ones, which were so awful it was almost funny except that someone could have gotten killed using the "information." If you decide to keep on with this page, I hope you'll incorporate what Chugach and Scott have shared. Cheers.
Matt Lemke - Jan 7, 2012 9:36 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: HmmmI'll notify you guys in the near future when I get the page updated so you can tell me what you think then.
juneauhiker - Jan 6, 2012 3:03 am - Hasn't voted
ThanksI've long felt that summitpost needed a Saint Elias page but I haven't been willing to put the time in to do it justice, so thank you for taking it on. The logo for the Alaskan Brewing Company's IPA has St Elias in the background if you're looking for more images. It's no surprise that information is sparse and climbs infrequent. I heard about some folks who tried to climb it and got 18 ft of snow in three days high on the mountain. Few are willing to put themselves through such harsh conditions
Scott - Jan 7, 2012 11:37 am - Voted 3/10
Constructive CritisismMatt,
I enjoy your photos and pages, so please don't take this the wrong way.
This St Elias page looks pretty and has lots of information. Unfortunately much of the information is has is inaccurate and most of the remaining information really won't help one climb the mountain.
Personally, my own constructive critisism opinion would be that the page should be postponed to be created by someone who has a more intimate knowlege of the mountain.
Once again, this isn't meant to be an attack, but is only my opinion and I enjoy your other pages.
Matt Lemke - Jan 7, 2012 12:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive CritisismScott,
Does anyone here have first hand experience on this mountain? I know we are not supposed to make mountain pages if we have not climbed the mountain in question however there have been less that 100 people to ever summit this one. I feel that the only way to get this mountain up on SP is for someone, or a group of people to combine resources and make an informative page. As I said before, I'm waiting for a few resources to get to me, which includes some first hand accounts of a few people who did climb it as well as a few books about the mountain itself and the routes. Once these get to me, I'll be revamping the page. Maybe I should have waited until I had all the info but I thought I'd get something started. If anyone else here on SP wishes to help make this page, send me a message.
Thanks Scott for the message. If you really believe Mountain pages should only be made by people who have climbed the mountain, and others agree with you, I can take the page down.
Matt
BTW, I like reading about your adventures and looking at your photos too!
Scott - Jan 7, 2012 6:35 pm - Voted 3/10
Re: Constructive CritisismDoes anyone here have first hand experience on this mountain?
At least two SP members have climbed it (and several others have attempted it or other mountains in the same proximity), but neither are that active on SP. Gerry Roach is one of the SP members who has climbed it, but he isn't so active anymore.
I feel that the only way to get this mountain up on SP is for someone, or a group of people to combine resources and make an informative page.
The page has been on SP at least three times, so it is likely that eventually someone will put up another one sometime in the future.
Maybe I should have waited until I had all the info but I thought I'd get something started.
From a constructive criticism standpoint, as the page stands there are just too many inaccuracies on the page to make it useful. Here are some specific examples so you can see where I'm coming from:
Most people climbing the mountain in modern times base themselves out of Yakutat when making preparations for a plane to St Elias. It doesn’t make any sense to come from the other places you mention on the page. I assume you are copying some information that those towns might be good bases to get to parts of Wrangell-St Elias National Park, but keep in mind that the national park covers well over 20,000 square miles and the places you list to fly out of are actually hundreds of miles from Mount St Elias and not practical to use as a bush plane base to get there. Unless you already live in Anchorage, it also makes more sense to approach Yakutat from Juneau rather than Anchorage.
The comparisons about there being no Himalayan Peaks comparable to the rise of Mount Saint Elias are also inaccurate. Although of the peaks rising above 14,000 feet, St Elias is considered to be the second most difficult mountain (via its standard route) in the United States meeting that criteria, it may or may not be accurate to refer it as one of the most difficult climbs in the world.
The when to climb section is also inaccurate as well. While the first ascent was in late July, there wasn’t as much known about SE Alaska weather patterns back then and they did not use plane access, therefore modern climbers do not prefer that time period. April through June are considered to be the practical months to climb the mountain. Late July and August are considered to be much more dangerous and it’s usually impossible to land a plane on the glaciers then. The page indicates that June through August is the best time to climb St Elias.
Most of the other information on the page just isn’t useful for planning a climb.
I hope you can see where I’m coming from. I don’t mean to nitpick the page apart, but there just isn’t enough hard beta there to make it a useful page to use in planning a climb.
Once again, I only mean the above as constructive criticism and to point out the reasons behind my vote and why I think it needs improvement or a more intimate knowledge.
Best of luck.
juneauhiker - Jan 11, 2012 12:03 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive CritisismActually Matt is correct that some people go from Anchorage/McCarthy. St Elias Alpine Guides, which I believe is the only company that advertises St Elias trips, is based in McCarthy and they fly out from there. http://www.steliasguides.com/trips_mountaineering_mtstelias.htm
chugach mtn boy - Jan 11, 2012 2:20 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive CritisismSigh ... unfortunately Matt doesn't say "some people go from Anchorage/McCarthy." Instead, he makes no mention at all of the primary access, Yakutat. And he says "you can fly into" Glennallen, Chitina, and Nabesna, and then "from any of these four locations you can take a private plane to the heart of the National Park." The way most people would read this, he's implying there are connecting flights from Anchorage to Nabesna or Glennallen, and then people charter from there onto St. Elias. This is complete malarkey. I love some of Matt's pages, but really, before doing the St. Elias page he needs to at least come to Alaska and lay eyes on the mountain. And I'd be happy to help him when he does it!
Matt Lemke - Jan 11, 2012 10:09 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive CritisismIf you all really insist I can delete the page. I will be in Alaska for an entire summer at some point in my life but until then...
I'm not here to make everyone angry. If you don't think I should make this page then let me know.
chugach mtn boy - Jan 11, 2012 12:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive CritisismMatt, here's what I think, but I'm just one person. I think you are a talented contributor to SP. The pages you've written from firsthand experience are mostly great. But Mt. St. Elias is different--it's one of the half dozen mountains in the world with a legitimate claim to having the highest short-range base-to-summit rise (sea level to 18K in 7 miles) and its a gorgeous, iconic peak. It's as significant as Mt. Blanc or Denali. The SP tradition for peaks like that is that their pages are super-pages, full of good information and written by people with lots of knowledge of the mountain.
What you've written would be of no assistance to somebody who was thinking about climbing St. Elias, nor even to somebody who would like to enjoy St. Elias from below. In fact, a lot of the information is just wrong. Some of this could be fixed, I'm sure, but I still think the end product will fall below SP standards and YOUR standards until you've at least been to the area. You won't like hearing this now, but when you get here, you'll know what I mean and you'll be a little embarrassed by some of what you put on this page.
I love St. Elias and have thought about doing a page on it myself. But I haven't, because I'm not qualified. You're even less qualified than I am.
What I'd suggest is that you put this page into custom objects for a year or two till you can get up here. And when you come, by the way, I'd be completely delighted to help you pursue your explorations with beta, rides, whatever--but what I can't really get into is editing a page by a guy who is writing about this mountain site-unseen.
Another option that might be viable would be for you to convert the page to a general range page for the St. Elias Mountains. It wouldn't be a great range page, but I think doing that would be less presumptuous than taking on a specific iconic peak like this.
Finally, please don't take this personally. I admire you as an SP contributor--I just think this is a bridge too far for you at this point in your career. That will probably change in a few years.
Matt Lemke - Jan 11, 2012 12:16 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Constructive Critisism"Another option that might be viable would be for you to convert the page to a general range page for the St. Elias Mountains."
Actually, I was thinking about doing that as I was initially making the page. I may actually go that route but for now, I'll change the page type, ultil I can decide how to approach my editing to be going on later this week and next week.
Kiefer - Jan 9, 2012 9:21 pm - Hasn't voted
Decent Start...All good views and insights; especially concerning the need for more viable routes (Harvard Route/SW Ridge, Abruzzi Ridge, East Ridge). Like Scott said, at least 2 folks (SP) have climbed this peak. Since Gerry doesn't really repond to e-mails anymore (I've tried to contact him via 14erworld about unrelated topics to no avail), try getting a hold of Dave Hart. He's also here on SP. He's climbed it and I'm sure would lend some great advice and beta. Plus, I believe Gerry descended the South Ridge or South Buttress? I'm not sure but if he did, I'm pretty sure no one would use or consider it a 'standard route' in such terms.
I've been planning a trip to St. Elias for a few months now for hopefully an expedition next May (2012) with 2 other folks in Anchorage and Dave has been invaluable. IF, it actually comes together, I'll have tons of beta to add!
A mountain of this caliber and seriousness, like Chugach stated, needs someone with an eye to detail and specifics. But considering the lack of beta that's out there for a lot of the peaks in the Wrangell/St. Elias, you've definitely got your work cut out for ya.
My own take on Alaskan Peaks, if it doesn't already exist here on SP, make sure you have all your ducks in order before you commit to posting anything or at least do as what you stated by offering an apology to the effect that said page IS STILL a work in progress. My own belief is that folks know Alaska is a wild and uncharted place. The peaks up there are as serious & dangerous as anywhere else in the world if not more so because of the weather and sheer prominance. In so saying, people 'in the know' will scrutinize any submission related with a magnifying scope to ensure good, climbing beta is represented and representitive of said peaks. It's a wild frontier that many folks pass over for places like the Andes or Alps or Karakoram but none-the-less, respect its' sheer rawness, difficulty and beauty and want to see future pages do it justice. I hope all that makes sense.
Good luck in your future editing, Matt. I'll hold off voting for the time being but I'm definitely looking forward to the finished product!
-Kiefer
Matt Lemke - Jan 21, 2012 5:05 pm - Hasn't voted
Page ChangedI have changed this page into an Area/Range page for the Saint Elias Mountains. I'm not done yet though as I still need to add the maps and some more background text. Bear with me. Thanks to all who have submitted input. Someday I will get out here!
Steve Gruhn - Jan 22, 2012 4:42 pm - Voted 2/10
Historical AscentsMount Bear was first climbed in 1951 by Alfred Baxter, Jr., Rupert Gates, and Jon Lindbergh.
I don't think it is entirely accurate to say the Robert Kennedy, with minimal climbing experience, was the leader of the first ascent of Mount Kennedy. He was led to the summit.
Matt Lemke - Jan 22, 2012 4:50 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Historical AscentsI was also questioning that as well. I'll re-word that. I'll also update the first ascent for Bear. Thanks