This might be the worst route description of any route I have seen on this entire website.
1. Don't group three routes on the same page, even if the first 2 miles is the same.
2. Give total mileage up front. Don't break it up and expect the reader to try and figure it out.
3. If you are going to break up mileage, don't give a total for the whole hike in one section, but only part of the total in another. All or nothing.
Next time I hike this I'll take my Garmin and get correct readings and then create a whole new page for the standard Red Pine Lake route. This page is just going to get people in trouble.
1. Don't group three routes on the same page, even if the first 2 miles is the same.
FYI, in the years this route was written, there was a problem on SP of people in regions like the Wasatch submitting many routes (or even summits) that are essentially the same for most of the length, or the distinguishing route feature was shared by multiple "routes" that were really nothing more than different trails to reach the real scrambling or climbing, so the different routes (or summits) weren't considered special enough to have their own pages. This was a byproduct of the points system at the time, which has since been improved.
The prevailing attitude at the time was that these 3 variations to gaining and ascending the East Ridge should be lumped into one page, especially since there is so little necessary information needed for each one (notice how each section only needs a few lines dedicated to it, apart from the shared approach and the ending, which is stated first and referred to later.)
Perhaps in SP v.2 this concern is out of date and I should resubmit this as 3 mostly redundant routes?
2. Give total mileage up front. Don't break it up and expect the reader to try and figure it out.
The mileage breakup you refer to here is between the approach page, and the route page.
If your criticism is that it is confusing with the mileage breakup, and/or having the route totals further down in the description, let me know. Now that you've brought my attention to it, it could be organized better and I will move things around later.
In SP v.1 there was an Approach Section to routes. At a minimum this was for getting to the trailhead, but for routes with hiking trails as a portion, the trail was considered part of the "approach" to the core route. So in this case, I have the approach mileage to where the variations diverge, since this seems useful for knowing when to watch for leaving the main trail (Red Pine).
In the core route section I listed separate values from the approach as a rough guide for the length and elevation gain of the entire to aid in judging time and difficulty of the route - this should probably be moved up front. These total values aren't broken down exactly for the individual variations because the mileage difference is close enough that they can overlap if people deviate from the shortest path (common, especially on the X-country sections, especially with snow cover), so a shared value is better for self-evaluation of doing the route.
3. If you are going to break up mileage, don't give a total for the whole hike in one section, but only part of the total in another. All or nothing
I disagree. Total route stats helps one assess the difficulty of the route and the time they expect it to take them. Parts of the total are more helpful for locating benchmarks, esp. divergences in route variations, or the route listed from a main trail.
If there is a breakdown for this reason, it seems unnecessary to me to fill in all of the other remaining breakdowns that aren't needed as a reference, especially on this page, where it is easy enough for those really interested to do the math (9 miles RT)/2 - 2.5 miles = 2 miles!, 3,700 ft - 1,400' = 2,300'! to the summit!) and the remaining distance and elevation gain isn't that important compared to locating yourself on a map and figuring that out yourself if you really care how much longer it is to the summit.
Plus, if you've been hiking and climbing as long as much as I have, you should know that such stats are only a preliminary starting point for assessing your ability to do the route and your itinerary on it. There are plenty of other factors that can make distances and elevation gains grossly misleading in these estimates. If people can get in trouble by misreading a simple route page that is mostly about a well-traveled hiking trail, and the difference of a mile is really that important to them, then they shouldn't be on this route anyways (or any other route featured on SP, for that matter).
BTW, In SP v.1, it was rare for people to even put up such detailed stats, so this was already considered very well done at the time and excessive in even listing the stats.
Also, I have a lot of routes on SP, most of which were created in the era of SP v.1 when user demand and standard page layouts were much different than they are now. Frankly, the old pages were plenty good at the time, but these need some cleanup or improvement here and there (e.g. nicer maps on the Notch Peak page) and I have been too busy to go back and polish them up for the changes in this site. Now that I have finished grad school, once I am back in the States where I have all my reference info, I am already planning to set about doing this ASAP.
Now, for Fixing Your Attitude
This might be the worst feedback of any I have received on Summitpost.
1. Don't start a suggestion with an insult if you want it taken seriously.
2. Make sure you understand a page's sections before you criticize them. Asking the creator ahead of time can help with this - or you should criticize in a more inquisitive manner just in case you really are misunderstanding something. And if it's serious enough of a misunderstanding, then that is good feedback that I should clear something up.
3. Ask about why a page has a certain structure to see if your suggestion is merely about updating the page to newer SP user demands or if it is really a carelessly written page.
4. Don't make lists all in one block of text. It is harder to read and makes for bad mountain pages on the internet. :-P
5. If you want to make friends on this site and for people to consider your suggestions, don't combine the suggestions with insults with threats, especially on your first request. As a project manager, shouldn't you know this for 'managing' people? Why do you feel the need to attack this route and threaten to make a duplicate one? Are you really that desperate for an excuse to have your own route?
I believe SP v.2 allows me to give other people shared editing privileges, so if you feel so strongly about shaping certain parts of the page beyond adding comments to them or sending suggestions to me, then you can be free to do so. I'm more than happy to share any page with anyone who really wants to take an active shared role in maintaining and updating the pages.
6. Perhaps you should contribute something to SP before you tell other people off with such an air of stuck up superiority. Otherwise, you look like an armchair critic.
Mark, greetings,
Obviously I quit visiting summitpost regularly enough to see your message to me . . . . 6 years ago!
Let me lead in with an apology for my initial feedback. I've read it several times now and can't believe I ever said that. Almost makes me wonder if my account got hacked, especially since it applies to a page and mountain that I've never had a problem route-finding. In any case, all of your feedback to me was warranted.
If there is one thing I've learned in my life it is that it's never too late for an apology.
All that aside now, I just climbed Timp via Everest Ridge and it was stellar. Scott Wesemann and I used yours and Joe's trip report as help knowing the route. Solid description and much appreciated. Good luck in your outings and hope to see you on the trail.
Jun32, let see what you have. Time to step up and contribute. It is always best to add creditability to strong statements with some junk in the ol trunk (Backup). The data on this site is collaborative so time to step up and give us what you got!
jun32 - Jul 29, 2009 3:48 pm - Hasn't voted
Fix PageThis might be the worst route description of any route I have seen on this entire website.
1. Don't group three routes on the same page, even if the first 2 miles is the same.
2. Give total mileage up front. Don't break it up and expect the reader to try and figure it out.
3. If you are going to break up mileage, don't give a total for the whole hike in one section, but only part of the total in another. All or nothing.
Next time I hike this I'll take my Garmin and get correct readings and then create a whole new page for the standard Red Pine Lake route. This page is just going to get people in trouble.
PellucidWombat - Jul 29, 2009 5:15 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Fix Page. & Fix Attitude1. Don't group three routes on the same page, even if the first 2 miles is the same.
FYI, in the years this route was written, there was a problem on SP of people in regions like the Wasatch submitting many routes (or even summits) that are essentially the same for most of the length, or the distinguishing route feature was shared by multiple "routes" that were really nothing more than different trails to reach the real scrambling or climbing, so the different routes (or summits) weren't considered special enough to have their own pages. This was a byproduct of the points system at the time, which has since been improved.
The prevailing attitude at the time was that these 3 variations to gaining and ascending the East Ridge should be lumped into one page, especially since there is so little necessary information needed for each one (notice how each section only needs a few lines dedicated to it, apart from the shared approach and the ending, which is stated first and referred to later.)
Perhaps in SP v.2 this concern is out of date and I should resubmit this as 3 mostly redundant routes?
2. Give total mileage up front. Don't break it up and expect the reader to try and figure it out.
The mileage breakup you refer to here is between the approach page, and the route page.
If your criticism is that it is confusing with the mileage breakup, and/or having the route totals further down in the description, let me know. Now that you've brought my attention to it, it could be organized better and I will move things around later.
In SP v.1 there was an Approach Section to routes. At a minimum this was for getting to the trailhead, but for routes with hiking trails as a portion, the trail was considered part of the "approach" to the core route. So in this case, I have the approach mileage to where the variations diverge, since this seems useful for knowing when to watch for leaving the main trail (Red Pine).
In the core route section I listed separate values from the approach as a rough guide for the length and elevation gain of the entire to aid in judging time and difficulty of the route - this should probably be moved up front. These total values aren't broken down exactly for the individual variations because the mileage difference is close enough that they can overlap if people deviate from the shortest path (common, especially on the X-country sections, especially with snow cover), so a shared value is better for self-evaluation of doing the route.
3. If you are going to break up mileage, don't give a total for the whole hike in one section, but only part of the total in another. All or nothing
I disagree. Total route stats helps one assess the difficulty of the route and the time they expect it to take them. Parts of the total are more helpful for locating benchmarks, esp. divergences in route variations, or the route listed from a main trail.
If there is a breakdown for this reason, it seems unnecessary to me to fill in all of the other remaining breakdowns that aren't needed as a reference, especially on this page, where it is easy enough for those really interested to do the math (9 miles RT)/2 - 2.5 miles = 2 miles!, 3,700 ft - 1,400' = 2,300'! to the summit!) and the remaining distance and elevation gain isn't that important compared to locating yourself on a map and figuring that out yourself if you really care how much longer it is to the summit.
Plus, if you've been hiking and climbing as long as much as I have, you should know that such stats are only a preliminary starting point for assessing your ability to do the route and your itinerary on it. There are plenty of other factors that can make distances and elevation gains grossly misleading in these estimates. If people can get in trouble by misreading a simple route page that is mostly about a well-traveled hiking trail, and the difference of a mile is really that important to them, then they shouldn't be on this route anyways (or any other route featured on SP, for that matter).
BTW, In SP v.1, it was rare for people to even put up such detailed stats, so this was already considered very well done at the time and excessive in even listing the stats.
Also, I have a lot of routes on SP, most of which were created in the era of SP v.1 when user demand and standard page layouts were much different than they are now. Frankly, the old pages were plenty good at the time, but these need some cleanup or improvement here and there (e.g. nicer maps on the Notch Peak page) and I have been too busy to go back and polish them up for the changes in this site. Now that I have finished grad school, once I am back in the States where I have all my reference info, I am already planning to set about doing this ASAP.
Now, for Fixing Your Attitude
This might be the worst feedback of any I have received on Summitpost.
1. Don't start a suggestion with an insult if you want it taken seriously.
2. Make sure you understand a page's sections before you criticize them. Asking the creator ahead of time can help with this - or you should criticize in a more inquisitive manner just in case you really are misunderstanding something. And if it's serious enough of a misunderstanding, then that is good feedback that I should clear something up.
3. Ask about why a page has a certain structure to see if your suggestion is merely about updating the page to newer SP user demands or if it is really a carelessly written page.
4. Don't make lists all in one block of text. It is harder to read and makes for bad mountain pages on the internet. :-P
5. If you want to make friends on this site and for people to consider your suggestions, don't combine the suggestions with insults with threats, especially on your first request. As a project manager, shouldn't you know this for 'managing' people? Why do you feel the need to attack this route and threaten to make a duplicate one? Are you really that desperate for an excuse to have your own route?
I believe SP v.2 allows me to give other people shared editing privileges, so if you feel so strongly about shaping certain parts of the page beyond adding comments to them or sending suggestions to me, then you can be free to do so. I'm more than happy to share any page with anyone who really wants to take an active shared role in maintaining and updating the pages.
6. Perhaps you should contribute something to SP before you tell other people off with such an air of stuck up superiority. Otherwise, you look like an armchair critic.
7. Don't end a suggestion with an insult.
Live life, and Peace!
Cheers,
Mark
jun32 - Mar 17, 2015 6:45 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Fix Page. & Fix AttitudeMark, greetings,
Obviously I quit visiting summitpost regularly enough to see your message to me . . . . 6 years ago!
Let me lead in with an apology for my initial feedback. I've read it several times now and can't believe I ever said that. Almost makes me wonder if my account got hacked, especially since it applies to a page and mountain that I've never had a problem route-finding. In any case, all of your feedback to me was warranted.
If there is one thing I've learned in my life it is that it's never too late for an apology.
All that aside now, I just climbed Timp via Everest Ridge and it was stellar. Scott Wesemann and I used yours and Joe's trip report as help knowing the route. Solid description and much appreciated. Good luck in your outings and hope to see you on the trail.
Craig
PellucidWombat - Apr 27, 2015 4:09 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Fix Page. & Fix AttitudeHey Craig,
I appreciate your apology! After so much time it is easy, even with a change in perspective or attention, to not follow up with one.
I'm glad to hear our route info for Everest Ridge was helpful. Isn't it a fantastic route?
Best,
Mark
Deltaoperator17 - Jul 29, 2009 6:05 pm - Hasn't voted
Lets SeeJun32, let see what you have. Time to step up and contribute. It is always best to add creditability to strong statements with some junk in the ol trunk (Backup). The data on this site is collaborative so time to step up and give us what you got!
Cheers
Steve