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How I Vote a Mountain or Route Page-What I am Looking For
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How I Vote a Mountain or Route Page-What I am Looking For

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How I Vote a Mountain or Route Page-What I am Looking For

Page Type: Article

Object Title: How I Vote a Mountain or Route Page-What I am Looking For

Activities: Hiking, Mountaineering, Trad Climbing, Sport Climbing, Toprope, Bouldering, Ice Climbing, Aid Climbing, Big Wall, Mixed, Scrambling, Via Ferrata, Canyoneering, Skiing

 

Page By: Scott

Created/Edited: Mar 27, 2006 / Jan 29, 2007

Object ID: 184031

Hits: 3137 

Page Score: 87.52%  - 26 Votes 

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Overview

I am writing this article, so I have something to link to every time I explain my vote, and most especially when I receive a PM. I don't want to just write the same thing over and over again, each time I vote.

Anyway, I treat everyone the same, and do not favor any other member over another when it comes to voting. I do not pick on anyone, or favor another. I vote on climbing information, and this is of the most importance.

Notes

Note 1: My SPv1 votes do not use these same criteria, though they may if I get to editing them all. Some of my earlier SPv2 votes may not reflect this either.

Note 2: This is applicable to Mountain or Route pages only, and not any other submissions.

Note 3: This is just my own criteria. I will not tell you how to vote. I’m sorry if you don’t like the way I vote. I always try to vote fairly, and usually vote higher than average. I give out many 10/10 votes, and don't mind doing so.

Note 4: Elevation of a mountain/hill is not important to me, but having a climbing or hiking route. It does not matter to me if a submission is 4,000 foot hill in Vermont or a 20,000 foot mountain in Peru, as long as the hiking and/or climbing information is present.

Note 5: I realize that some routes and mountains don't need very detailed route information (such as a trail), and I will still vote 10/10 on those pages, if much detail is not needed.

Note 6: Yes, you can vote 1 star on this article, and I won't revenge vote you. It isn’t posted for any other reason other than my own use to link to.

Note 7: I am sorry if I have ever offended anyone by one of my votes. I usually vote higher than most people.

Note 8: Nope, I couldn't think of an appropriate signature photo. Sorry about that.

Note 9: I am always willing to help anyone with a mountain page. I will do my best to help you, if you ask, though I am no expert on writting for Summitpost.

The 1/10 Page

Pages that I vote 1/10 are:

1. Pages that contain information I know to be erroneous (minor corrections are ignored if fixed).

2. Pages that contain information I know to be stolen.

3. Pages with no driving (or public transport), hiking, and climbing information, no matter how well written.

4. Pages that were originally good, but that have been abandoned and additions/corrections not made.

The 2/10 Page

Pages that I vote 2/10 are:

1. Pages that contain accurate information for reaches the summit, but a driving route only. If the mountain/hill has a road on it (such as Pikes Peak), fine, but please add hiking or climbing routes as well.

2. Pages similar to, but slightly better than the 1/10 pages above.

The 3/10 to 7/10 Page

Pages I vote 3/10 to 7/10 are:

1. Pages that are mostly accurate, but vague. I still must consult other sources. Pages will usually contain a routes overview, but not enough details to get you to the summit without a guidebook or other source.

The 8/10 Page

Pages I vote 8/10 are:

1. These pages usually have enough information to get you there, but contain a few missing details, or annoyances, or contain some visible and obvious errors.

The 9/10 Page

Pages I vote 9/10 are:

1. These pages either have route information on the front page, or have a route page attached. Along with a good map, these pages contain enough information, including driving directions that I can print out, fold in my pocket, and use as my only source to go do the climb, without having to have a guidebook, or read more information somewhere else.

The 10/10 Page

1. These Mountain pages either have route information for more than one route on the front page, or have more than one route page attached, or have a routes overview with a few or several outlined routes plus a route page. Exceptions are made for peaks with only one practical route. Along with a good map (brought by myself and it doesn't have to be on the mountain page) and, these pages contain enough information, including driving directions that I can print out, fold in my pocket, and use as my only source to go do the climb, without having to have a guidebook, or read more information somewhere else.

2. For Route Pages only, these pages contain enough information, including driving directions that I can print out, fold in my pocket, and use as my only source to go do the climb, without having to have a guidebook, or read more information somewhere else.

Bonus and Exceptions

I may bump up a vote, if it is a mountain I have never heard of and is probably only on Summitpost. I also am not too picky if pages such as K2, Cerro Torre, Masherbrum, etc. are missing detailed route information. These are difficult mountains, and this is understandable, to me. Such pages should still have information about how to trek to basecamp.

I may adjust the vote down also, if I feel something needs to be added or corrected.

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Comments


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Viewing: 1-16 of 16    

Matt Worsteryou're hilarious

Matt Worster

Hasn't voted

I love it. Absolutely love it.
Posted Mar 28, 2006 1:43 am

Aaron JohnsonA Good Idea

Aaron Johnson

Hasn't voted

Given you're one of the most powerful members on SP, and you're vote is very influential. Hopefully it will keep you out of trouble! ;>)
Posted Mar 28, 2006 3:46 am

CoraxInteresting

Corax

Voted 10/10

A very interesting and unusual article.
I liked to compare my way of thinking with yours.
It can also be a good guideline for voters.

Posted Mar 28, 2006 6:17 am

JasonHGood job

JasonH

Voted 10/10

This makes me want to rethink every vote I have made.
Posted Apr 6, 2006 6:52 am

KaneHmm

Kane

Hasn't voted

Scott, why do you put so much importance in adding a second route? To go from a 9 to a 10 means someone had to climb the mountain by two different routes? IMO I find that to be an unreasonable request for other SP members.

BTW, I'm adding a Topo to my Star Peak page and the North Ridge is the only reasonable route. I also added the topo and the Getting there to the route page.
Posted Apr 7, 2006 1:35 am

ScottRe: Hmm

Scott

Hasn't voted

Notice that SP guidelines say the following, and that a 9-star is by no means bad:

1 The Worst. Ever.
2 Horrible
3 Pretty Bad
4 Below Average
5 Average
6 Above Average
7 Pretty Good
8 Excellent
9 Wow! Amazing
10 The Best. Ever.

Scott, why do you put so much importance in adding a second route? To go from a 9 to a 10 means someone had to climb the mountain by two different routes?

No not at all. Notice what I said:

1. These Mountain pages either have route information for more than one route on the front page, or have more than one route page attached, or have a routes overview with several outlined routes plus a route page. Exceptions are made for peaks with only one practical route.

IMO I find that to be an unreasonable request for other SP members.

I agree. With a mountain close to home, it is easy to ascend a peak more than once, but (for example) there is no way I’m going to fly half way across the world just to add a second route page to some of my pages.

BTW, I'm adding a Topo to my Star Peak page and the North Ridge is the only reasonable route. I also added the topo and the Getting there to the route page.

I changed the vote to 10, because technically you mentioned two routes with the SW face. The Star Peak page was and is excellent, and your pages are among the best on Summitpost. I did however have to write some sort of a criteria because people seem to like to question votes, and I did have to vote everyone the same.

Also, you do not have to climb a mountain by two different routes to add a routes overview. If the north ridge is indeed the only practical route, by your observation, just let us know, and that’s more than enough to me to vote 10 as per the criteria on the article.

For a page to be “prefect” (which I don’t claim any of my own pages to be), and since the route info is the most important to me, I would prefer to see a routes overview, even if brief, but this is just my opinion. A routes overview on an obscure peak with no other info available doesn’t mean that you have climbed the mountain from another route, but can be based on observation. For example, does a route from Cooper Creek to the north ridge look like a possibility, or does it look extra nasty and you wouldn’t recommend even trying it? Or was it impossible to make a judgment?

One some obscure mountains similar to Star, I have only been able to find one practical route, but personally, I like to point this out, and it’s just my own opinion which might be very different from your own. I’ll use some pages as examples (but admit your pages are better than mine; these are only examples):

The Cathedral

Like Star Peak, The Cathedral is hard to find info on, and in fact SP is the only place you will find route info on the peak. I could find only one practical route, and here’s what I wrote in the Routes Overview:

After several exploratory trips on all sides of the mountain, we were only to find one viable route to the summit; the Northeast Shoulder. Briefly put (see the route page for more details): From the trailhead the route follows the East Fork Bear River Trail east. After 4 miles, the route turns left here on the trail posted for Allsop Lake. After a ways the route scrambles up the Northwest Shoulder to the summit. The route is not that easy, but is fairly easy to find.

After much searching, all other routes to the summit seem to be blocked by cliffs, and the rock is not good for technical climbing. In July 1998, we made an attempt of the south ridge and reached 11,960 feet, but there were thunderstorms and we had to return. The south ridge may go if you skirt around to the west and around the buttresses, and by making the final approach up some western gullies, but this is unconfirmed. The only confirmed route I know of is the NE Shoulder.

The East Face Gullies are probably the finest snow climbing routes in the Uinta Mountains. It may be possible to traverse to the Northeast Shoulder Route from the northern-most gully, but I haven't tried it.


I also couldn’t find any other route info on Monte Roraima and any other route would be far beyond my ability. Obviously, I only climbed one route.

Monte Roraima

The Paratepui Route, is by far the most popular route on the mountain is is probably use by at least 99.999% of the people climbing the peak. This is also the only non-technical route available for climbing the mountain. The route crosses the Gran Sabana and climbes a rugged and slippery route to the summit. There are several river crossings, which you must do on foot (no bridges). The Rio Tex and Rio Kukenan crossings can be problematic after rains. The trek out to the base of the peak can be hot, sunny, and shadeless across the Gran Sabana. It usually takes 1 to 1 1/2 days to reach the base of the peak. The trek to the top and back usually takes four days, plus any days you may spend on top.

Other routes other than the one described are very seldom attempted. Rock climbers could probably find several "first" all over the sides of this peak. The mountain has been climbed from the Guyana and Brazilian sides, but I don't have any information on the routes, other than they are technical big-wall climbs and only for expert climbers.


Also notice this page. It was actually vote 3 on SPv1 because it only had one route page. On the other hand, there is really only one practical route.

Tajumulco

Notice the Red Tape section:

There are (were?) also rumors that there are land-mines on the mountain. Avoid anything that looks suspicious. Don't stray from the trail.

The heck if I’m going to try another route. Forget that, and screw anyone who down votes the page because I don't feel like walking around off the trail since there is a risk of landmines.

What I’m getting at, is just tell us that there appears to only one practical route on the mountain, and I will always vote 10/10 on such well written pages, such as yours. Also, if you could let us know what you observed by looking at the other parts of the mountain, this makes an outstanding page perfect.

PS, what do you consider a 10/10 to be?
Posted Apr 7, 2006 4:43 am

ScottRe: Hmm

Scott

Hasn't voted

PS, don't feel too bad about my previous 9/10 vote (now a 10/10). I actually have the worse rated route page in the state of Utah (at least ones that were voted on), hee hee:

Worse score of a route in Utah (besides unvoted ones)
Posted Apr 7, 2006 6:06 am

Jeroen VelsNice

Jeroen Vels

Hasn't voted

This makes this clear. I like the page.
Posted May 9, 2006 10:56 am

BigLeePointless

BigLee

Voted 5/10

"It isn’t posted for any other reason other than my own use to link to"....Why not just keep it on your PC then?

I don't see the point of this page to keep it brief.
Posted Jan 23, 2007 2:52 pm

ScottRe: Pointless

Scott

Hasn't voted

"It isn’t posted for any other reason other than my own use to link to"....Why not just keep it on your PC then?

No, it is not pointless. When ever someone complains about a vote I have made, I link them to this page and show them that I vote everyone the same.

Some people get all upset whenever someone doesn't vote a 10/10 every time. That is the point behind this page.
Posted Jan 23, 2007 3:24 pm

Steven CrossVery Practicle, makes sense.

Steven Cross

Hasn't voted

I like the guideline and it's probably not much different than how I vote. Seems to me that others compair pages to the very best well written pages on SP such as Raineier or Everest. Those become the standard to a 10 vote and any page with any less content is voted less than 10.
Posted Feb 22, 2013 12:44 pm

atavistGreat contribution but why is it necessary

atavist

Hasn't voted

I appreciate this article. But I think it identifies a general flaw with SP design to allow voting on a 10-point scale.

Consider other sites that encourage user feedback for user-generated content. Facebook has 'likes'. Google has '+1'. This is a simple system that can recognize and encourage useful contributions. And guess what, there are no power points and people still contribute. Just imagine what would happen if FB allowed users to 'like' something on a scale of 1-10. The whole user experience would change for the worse.

A 10-point graded feedback system will inherently result in confusion and hurt feelings. Firstly by providing an opportunity to give low votes. This allows users to go out of their way to degrade the contributions of others. Secondly, every user will interpret the voting differently. A user might consider an 8 very good whereas the contributor feels that an 8 is bad. This is not good for the site.

In my opinion the only time that something deserves a low score is if it is wrong or plagiarized. But in this case a comment or note to the elves would be a better course of action anyway.

So given the current state of the site, this article provides some clarity for one person's method of evaluation. But even in this detailed article, Scott abbreviates his descriptions from 3/10 through 7/10. Think about why.
Posted Feb 24, 2013 10:38 am

ScottRe: Great contribution but why is it necessary

Scott

Hasn't voted

Good points atavist. This article was written several years ago when the 10/10 system was new. I don't think the 10/10 system worked out as well as intended.
Posted Feb 24, 2013 8:51 pm

byatesNot being repetitive

byates

Hasn't voted

I.e Uinta pages, with the same info being copied over and over for each write up would be a good voting point!
Posted Feb 24, 2013 7:54 pm

ScottRe: Not being repetitive

Scott

Hasn't voted

That's a good point Brad (and one good for a discussion for entire thread on the forum), but I think the only real solution to this is to have more members start adding pages to the Uinta Mountains (of which there are many still available).

Sadly, ZeeJay and I are the only members who have added any pages to the Uinta Mountains in many years. Unless you count Zenobia Peak which is marginally in the Uintas, and West Grandaddy added in 2010, no one else besides us two have added any pages in the Uintas since 2008.

The description of the Uintas I put in the overview won't change much because it is the description for the range. Also, over time as more and more trailheads are covered, inevitably driving directions will overlap too (as will approach information on route pages). Keep in mind too that before 2006 you couldn't attach one object (even photos) to multiple pages. In the past, I had multiple mountains covered on one page to avoid some of this, but they were recently split out which is better for summitlogs and peak list). On the Kings-Emmons Ridge, for example, for variety I was thinking that it might be good if they didn't all to belong to one person (a little variety is good I think), so I suggested that we (ZeeJay and I) split them in half (and we did so).

Here are the last two pages I added in the Uintas:

Dead Horse Peak

North Cathedral

As can be seen much of the description for the entire range is the same in the overview. On many pages, so is the information to various trailheads. Because I know the Uinta Mountains very well (I wrote a guidebook there and used to be a guide there as well), for variety I try to add as many different routes and approaches as possible, but inevitably some of the information will still overlap.

Uintas aside, the same is even more so about the Elkhead Mountains and not one other SP member has ever added a page there (and likely few if any ever will).

The Uinta Mountains are more popular than the Elkhead Mountains though, so my solution offered would be to have other members start adding pages there (I've already added all I can without finishing the remaining peaks I have left to climb there). Before adding more pages to the Uintas, I actually waited several years for other members to add them (I added no pages at all to the Uintas between August 11 2007 to October 17 2012; but hardly anyone else did either). The majority of the peaks aren't in any guidebooks either, so all information was written from scratch.

So my friend, my solution for you is to add more pages to the Uintas. There are several 12ers still available:

Peak List

The vast majority of peaks below 12K haven't been added either (and there are many interesting ones as well). I'd very much enjoy it if others would add some more pages to these areas for more variety.
Posted Feb 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Liba Kopeckovahow about angry people

Liba Kopeckova

Voted 10/10

how about angry people who vote low on a page because they would like to keep it a secret? I had that happened to me, e.g. Telluride's via ferrata or Dry Creek crags. Some guy just created profile so he could vote 1/10 on Dry Creek crags because he wanted the area to stay unknown. Unfortunately for him, the Telluride outdoor magazine just advertised it too :)...
Posted Mar 3, 2013 7:41 pm

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