? from a dumb American

[Dottie Little Tent]

Please forgive my ignorance. I have not made it to Europe yet. I frequent Montana and Wyoming and also love Alaska. By viewing the incredible photos on summitpost I can tell that the Alps in Europe are simply breathtaking. I am particularly drawn to the Dolomites. They appear to be as grand as my fav Mts of Glacier Nat'l Park if not more dramatic. But my ? is this. I have the impression that the European Alps are pretty muched carved up with roads and development and that the native species have been exterminated. I have never thought of anywhere in Europe having unspoiled wilderness with large predators running free.

is this correct? What kind of wild areas are preserved? How big ( in acres please) are some of your wilder tracts of land? Do you have Grizzlies or Cougars or other large predators that roam free?

Thanks for the info and I hope to make it to the Alps and maybe some via ferreta.
Cheers,
DLT

[Dottie Little Tent]

Also do you have native fish populations in the rivers and lakes? And what kind of fish?

[Nikman]

The alps are well accessed. Someone has to have good knowledge to get to remote spots.

There has been a wild bear running around recently in the German alps crossing over to Austria and back into Germany. He killed some cattle and therefore was chased and nabbed. It´s been a big deal throughout the media and even the former Bavarian prime minister Mr. Stoiber hold a funny and well known speach about the "Problembär".

There are reports about wild wolfes in some of the remote areas, for example Zwischenbergtal in Switzerland. Another very remote area is the upper Lechtal (German-Austrian-border). The Gran Paradiso area in Italy is also quite remote and you will find many wild Alpine ibex there.

[Arthur Digbee]

Wildlife:
There are also wolves on the French-Italian border area, and in scattered mountainous areas throughout the boot of Italy. The bears (described in previous responses) are brown bears, as in North America, but smaller.

Wilderness:
In the Alps, the answer is "essentially none." Roads, trains, gondolas, huts, and other "improvements" are everywhere.

[nartreb]

There are several parks and wildlife refuges. For example, Parc National de la Vanoise and the nearby Parco Nationale del Gran Paradiso, together making maybe 2000 square kilometers.
Map: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.4 ... &z=10&om=1

There is development (ski resorts, whole towns) within these, so these are not pure wilderness. But chamois and ibex are abundant, and you can spot mouflon too [{re-}introduced]. Deer are present in the woods, and the Vanoise website mentions that wild boars have made a dramatic return since the 1990s. As for predators, the Paradiso's website mentions wolf and lynx, but those must be rare. SP member photos confirm fox and ermine.

[Nikman]

Wilderness:
In the Alps, the answer is "essentially none." Roads, trains, gondolas, huts, and other "improvements" are everywhere.

There are few parts that from my point of view deserve to be called Wilderness. Of course Chamonix and Ag. du Midi is not one of them, although this is a must see of different character indeed.

[Moni]

There are plenty of places that are remote and there is a lot less BS to go there. You don't have to kiss some ranger's ass to get a permit. The population density in Europe is MUCH higher than in the western US with the resulting development. However, the benefits are great public transportation. The hut system reduces impact from random camping.

In the 1850's only about 30% of Switzerland was forested, now it is 80%. Even with urbanization there is more forested ground than in previous years.

Not many predators, but lots of ibex, chamois, mouflon (like big horn sheep), roe deer, red deer, caribou, elk and smaller predators like fox and badger. They have way more song birds. Bear and wolf are rare. Not sure if Europe ever had anything like a cougar but they did (do?) have several species of wildcat.

The Dolomites are nothing like Glacier - completely different rock - but they are spectacular. The Berner Oberland in the middle of Switzerland is more like Glacier - same crappy rock, but with more glaciers and ice holding it together. The Alps have much more relief - not uncommon to see 6000 to 12000 feet of elevation gain on a climb, where in Glacier 6000 is about max and 3000 - 5000 more common.

Definitely worth a visit.

[signorellil]

Wilderness:
In the Alps, the answer is "essentially none." Roads, trains, gondolas, huts, and other "improvements" are everywhere.

Well, no. I could mentions several large areas of the Western Alps at less than 90 minutes of car from Turin were you may walk for hours (if not days) and hardly find any trace of civilization (or find trace of ABANDONED civilization - in some area emigration was dramatic during XX century). While not "real" wilderness (because of the comparatively small space), some area are really "wild".

Same goes for the eastern tip of the Alps (Carnia, etc)

[BigLee]

I have never thought of anywhere in Europe having unspoiled wilderness...

You should check out Norway if wilderness is what you like! You won't be disappointed. You'll also find Europe's best ice here.

[Diego Sahagún]

DLT, check those sites:

http://www.summitpost.org/list/256482/n ... urope.html

http://www.summitpost.org/list/256498/n ... urope.html

http://www.summitpost.org/list/345770/n ... urope.html

http://www.summitpost.org/list/256005/n ... urope.html

http://www.summitpost.org/list/343176/n ... urope.html

[Arthur Digbee]

I have never thought of anywhere in Europe having unspoiled wilderness...

You should check out Norway if wilderness is what you like!

Alas, Dottie asked about the Alps. I agree with you about parts of Scandinavia, and Iceland (which is also partly in North America). Supposedly there are wildernesses from Bialowieza Primeval Forest (Poland) eastwards, too, but I haven't seen those.

The definition of "wilderness" in the US Wilderness Act of 1964 is a place "untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Forgive the sexist language.

That's true of some tundra, snow and ice in the Alps -- but those are patches, not continuous wilderness. Is there any place in the Alps that is 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola?

In the Lower 48, the Thorofare (Yellowstone) is 25 miles/40 km from a road. So is Siskiwit Point on Isle Royale, but that's an island so it might not count.

[Diego Sahagún]

I have never thought of anywhere in Europe having unspoiled wilderness...

You should check out Norway if wilderness is what you like!

Alas, she asked about the Alps.

She

[Arthur Digbee]

She

Sorry, "Dottie" is normally a female name. My bad. Sorry, Dottie Little Tent!

[Nikman]

The definition of "wilderness" in the US Wilderness Act of 1964 is a place "untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Forgive the sexist language.
That's true of some tundra, snow and ice in the Alps -- but those are patches, not continuous wilderness. Is there any place in the Alps that is 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola?

`
For sure there are places in the Alps, that fit the US definition of wilderness. There are also (not many but few) places in the Alps with more than 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola. The Bernese Alps are only one example with Europes longest glacier: Aletschgletscher is 23,6 km long (2002) and covers an area about 117,6 km².
Man or Women will always stay (frequent) visitors there and they don't remain.

[schmid_th]

The definition of "wilderness" in the US Wilderness Act of 1964 is a place "untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Forgive the sexist language.
That's true of some tundra, snow and ice in the Alps -- but those are patches, not continuous wilderness. Is there any place in the Alps that is 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola?

`
For sure there are places in the Alps, that fit the US definition of wilderness. There are also (not many but few) places in the Alps with more than 10 km (straight line) from a road, train, hut or gondola. The Bernese Alps are only one example with Europes longest glacier: Aletschgletscher is 23,6 km long (2002) and covers an area about 117,6 km².
Man or Women will always stay (frequent) visitors there and they don't remain.

You´re right. It depends on the mountain you want to climb. F.e. the area around Lauteraarhorn is wild and far away from civilization. No mobile phone connection, only a bivy, very less people and great mountains to climb. And 19 km walk over glacier and boulders to reach the bivy...