bergs wrote:Obviously, most of us are too prudent and too cautious to even consider this question. But, is there a part of you that admires mountaineers who would rather die than give up, turn back or surrender to a mountain? I certainly admire the fearless and the crazy brave.

I can admire perseverance in difficult circumstances but not making stupid decisions. Knowing that you will most likely die trying, is a bit of a selfish act IMO.

I can see "going for it" if you're completely "cut off" from everybody else in your life.

If you have "dependents," that's a different story. Case by case basis; but it might be

incredibly FOOLISH to "kill yourself" over something Nature has thrown at you.

Unless, of course, the Grim Reaper chooses to grab you on that particular day.

lcarreau wrote:I can see "going for it" if you're completely "cut off" from everybody else in your life.

If you have "dependents," that's a different story. Case by case basis; but it might be

incredibly FOOLISH to "kill yourself" over something Nature has thrown at you.

Unless, of course, the Grim Reaper chooses to grab you on that particular day.

My feelings about this stuff radically changed when I got married, 33 years ago.

MoapaPk wrote:

lcarreau wrote:I can see "going for it" if you're completely "cut off" from everybody else in your life.

If you have "dependents," that's a different story. Case by case basis; but it might be

incredibly FOOLISH to "kill yourself" over something Nature has thrown at you.

Unless, of course, the Grim Reaper chooses to grab you on that particular day.

My feelings about this stuff radically changed when I got married, 33 years ago.

Agreed. I now find I am willing to accept far more risk.

Catamount wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:

lcarreau wrote:I can see "going for it" if you're completely "cut off" from everybody else in your life.

If you have "dependents," that's a different story. Case by case basis; but it might be

incredibly FOOLISH to "kill yourself" over something Nature has thrown at you.

Unless, of course, the Grim Reaper chooses to grab you on that particular day.

My feelings about this stuff radically changed when I got married, 33 years ago.

Agreed. I now find I am willing to accept far more risk.

Go Big or Go Home.

I'm obviously not saying that I would "choose death" for myself but I also have no problem admitting that I greatly admire those people who, whether out of an innate fearlessness, extraordinary courage, eccentricness or even madness, venture to places (and to heights) that would make us normal human beings wilt in fear. Although not a book about mountaineering, I highly recommend the book "The Lost City of Z" for an illustration of the type of person I am thinking of (google Percy Fawcett). I enjoy reading about the exploits of mountaineers, explorers, oceaneers, soldiers and others who test the limits of the human soul and the human capacity to survive in incredibly dangerous and hostile environments. Selfishness is certainly a trait common among these types of people and I am glad that most of us are far too involved in family and community life to even consider an adventure in which the chances of survival are low just for the sake of some discovery, some accomplishment (the first to do this or that) or even for the sake of the adventure itself. There is no doubt that there are people who have lived that would knowingly choose death over turning back and this is a good thing.

Catamount wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:My feelings about this stuff radically changed when I got married, 33 years ago.

Agreed. I now find I am willing to accept far more risk.

You got married at age 7?

We eloped.

I can think of many other things I'd be willing to die for but the summit of a mountain is not one of them. Unless you have no other people, pets, political affiliation or web-cam co-eds that you care about, or who care about you, it seems pretty ridiculous to risk it all for so little. The mountain will still be there-you won't. Get down safely and come back when you are more prepared or when conditions allow your safe passage. Its a fine line between bravery and foolishness.

Yep, even if you use all your strength, courage, raw determination and cast-iron balls to
get to the summit ...

You still gotta make it back down to civilization. (i.e.) - that cozy fireplace with the fridge in
the corner and spider webs on the ceiling.

Sorry, but that's how life in a Society (with other fools and numb-skulls) works!

summit or death; either way i'll be happy

granite4brains wrote:

Dingus Milktoast wrote:

granite4brains wrote:I think its all misconception in the original post. I'd say probably 99.999% of climbers, if they could, somehow know for sure beforehand, they would die attaining a summit, they would turn around. They only continued on because they thought they could probably get away with it and live.

It's one thing taking a calculated risk to achieve a summit, but knowingly going to your death, that's a whole 'nother ballgame.

There are tons of stories in history where people knowingly gave their lives for a greater cause - now, that's admirable.

"Forward!" he cried, from the rear, and the front line died.

DMT

huh? If you're appying that to what I said, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying?

Taint no thing bruddah.

Personally I think most experienced mountaineers have made the summit or die choice more times than most of us, myself included, would care to admit.

Push up through suspect windslab? After telling yourself its too dangerous, then talking yourself into dismissing those suspeicions? Ever do that?

Walked beneath teetering seracs? You say its different but is it? Is it really different?

"If I knew it was CERTAIN death..." Yes yes, of course. But you won't know for certain, it seems to me. That 'if I KNOW I'll die on the descent I'll turn around" is a bit of a dodge.

Its an interesting topic.

Cheers
DMT

DMT

What is with all this summit or nothing shit any how.

Like any of us got into this game thinking that it was all about the summit or death... right?

Not this dude. It's all about the process for this poser, all about the process. The summit in most of my endeavors is no where on the agenda and not achieved. If the process line (route) happens to involve the summit, then there it be.

The process.

After reading and researching all these Big Mountain folks and their emphatic quest for the Seven Summits, the last week or so, will, I guess I am just a poser.

Believing in and living the process forces me to rethink this death thing. The process does not allow for the death deal being a part of the accomplishment. Listening to that little voice that has told time and time again to get the fk outta there so I can return another day and climb again, that is part of this process and what keeps me alive.

This process does not allow for the death deal. Thus, I am just a poser cus I am not concerned with the summit nor dying in the attempt to achieve it.

Mountaineering is intrinsically irrational activity. There is no valid point in climbing mountains. Therefore, calling some behavior "stupid" or other "smart" is kinda out of place. It's utter stupidity to go there anyway. So, I guess "admire" is a good word. Yes, I do admire people who can conquer their own fear and press on. Plain lack of endurance hinds behind an apparent prudence way too often.