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Postby ExcitableBoy » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:16 pm

I have never seen a any side by side studies evaluating the effectiveness of Crossfit verses traditional training methods. My guess is if one put as much effort into traditional workout methods they would achieve the same or better results than Crossfit.
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Postby bird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:45 pm

ExcitibleBoy wrote:I have never seen a any side by side studies evaluating the effectiveness of Crossfit verses traditional training methods. My guess is if one put as much effort into traditional workout methods they would achieve the same or better results than Crossfit.

I'd strongly disagree with this on two levels. First, time. Since many/most CF routines take 10 - 20 minutes (with a few notable exceptions), I don't believe that anyone could get the same fitness doing traditional methods in the same time. Second, traditional (I'm using the term as referring to weight machines, etc) methods don't lend themselves to intensity.
Anecdotally, I did tradition workouts (30 minute run followed by 45 minutes of bench, curls, machines whatever and my fitness made a quantum leap due to crossfit.
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Postby ExcitableBoy » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:29 pm

bird wrote:
ExcitibleBoy wrote:I have never seen a any side by side studies evaluating the effectiveness of Crossfit verses traditional training methods. My guess is if one put as much effort into traditional workout methods they would achieve the same or better results than Crossfit.

I'd strongly disagree with this on two levels. First, time. Since many/most CF routines take 10 - 20 minutes (with a few notable exceptions), I don't believe that anyone could get the same fitness doing traditional methods in the same time. Second, traditional (I'm using the term as referring to weight machines, etc) methods don't lend themselves to intensity.
Anecdotally, I did tradition workouts (30 minute run followed by 45 minutes of bench, curls, machines whatever and my fitness made a quantum leap due to crossfit.


You basically proved my point. Before you were doing very easy workouts. Now you are doing more intense workouts and you consider yourself to me more fit. That is comparing apples to oranges. If you had upped the difficulty of your old workouts you very well have made the same gains as cross fit.

Anecdotally, I am a short, fat, asthmatic, 40 something year old with a significant immunodeficiency. I do traditional workouts (a bit of running and weight lifting). I did Liberty Ridge in 30 hours car to car. You are a Cross Fit disciple and it took you how long to climb Liberty Ridge? 5 Days? Just saying.
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Postby bird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:37 pm

ExcitibleBoy wrote:
bird wrote:
ExcitibleBoy wrote:I have never seen a any side by side studies evaluating the effectiveness of Crossfit verses traditional training methods. My guess is if one put as much effort into traditional workout methods they would achieve the same or better results than Crossfit.

I'd strongly disagree with this on two levels. First, time. Since many/most CF routines take 10 - 20 minutes (with a few notable exceptions), I don't believe that anyone could get the same fitness doing traditional methods in the same time. Second, traditional (I'm using the term as referring to weight machines, etc) methods don't lend themselves to intensity.
Anecdotally, I did tradition workouts (30 minute run followed by 45 minutes of bench, curls, machines whatever and my fitness made a quantum leap due to crossfit.


You basically proved my point. Before you were doing very easy workouts. Now you are doing more intense workouts and you consider yourself to me more fit. That is comparing apples to oranges. If you had upped the difficulty of your old workouts you very well have made the same gains as cross fit.

Anecdotally, I am a short, fat, asthmatic, 40 something year old with a significant immunodeficiency. I do traditional workouts (a bit of running and weight lifting). I did Liberty Ridge in 30 hours car to car. You are a Cross Fit disciple and it took you how long to climb Liberty Ridge? 5 Days? Just saying.

3 days, but that's besides the point. We are not comparing me to you. From the posts here, I can see you are a stronger more experienced climber than myself. No argument there (in fact I look forward to your advice about PNW climbs next month...and if the trip pans out I'll be needing a partner!)
Back on point, so you take my old workouts, a bit of running, some weight training, etc. and "do more intense workouts" by cutting out times between lifts and doing more intense runs, viola, you have Crossfit. So you agree, crossfit makes you more fit...thanks for proving my point. :D
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Postby ExcitableBoy » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:41 pm

bird wrote:and if the trip pans out I'll be needing a partner!


Let me know, if I am feeling up to it I'd be happy to hook up for a weekend of climbing.
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Postby bird » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:19 am

Will do. Thanks
Eric
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Postby albanberg » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:58 pm

Interesting stuff here...I'll have to check into the crossfit concept.
A couple of points:

1. I like to train in 4 to 6 week cycles to prevent over training. After each cycle I take a week or so of rest. In general, I increase the intensity and duration throughout the cycle.

2. Do you still need to loose the weight? For weight loss I prefer to do as much endurance as possible. Once a week should also work if you can do 5 or 6 hours of low intensity work, but this depends on the individual.

3. The crossfit sounds cool, but I think training the body to burn fat first via endurance is the only way to get the fat burning first result. Although I understand that just lifting weights and building mass will also help to burn more fat and burn fat at rest etc.

4. Intervals:

A: These are great and essential. I prefer to start with longer intervals and work up to shorter, more intense, intervals over time/training cycles.

B: I have also had success with intervals of around 8 to 10 minutes with fairly full recovery but performed over long stretches of time...up to 6 hours. This type of training got me into the best shape of my life, in fact. I think the interval may have a different optimal length for different people. Note that when I do these longer intervals they are fairly hard efforts to very hard efforts. Sometimes I will do an easier one if I just did an all out, but it's still not easy. Also note that I do these on a bicycle going uphill and rest on the downhill (hill repeats). I think one could do these walking/running/carrying a backpack etc. uphill as well.

5. If you want to do well at some sort of climbing, I suggest doing as much of that as possible to get in shape for it. Your body should adapt to the requirements and change. Not that it's not good to do extra stuff like rings/crossfit/running/intervals etc.

That's about all I can think of at the moment...

I'm trying to get more fit myself after having laid off too much for a couple of years. I'm doing mostly cycling but also a little bit of hiking and I'm starting to do pull-ups etc. I also do a yoga program.

Cheers and best of luck on your training!
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Postby thelisa » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:05 pm

This is a great discussion guys. I am adding my 2 cents because I recently started going to my local Crossfit affiliate to supplement to my ultrarunning and climbing. The best way to train for any sport is to do it, of course, especially climbing since it involves good technique, not just 'generic' strength and endurance.

However, I find the variety and intensity of Crossfit exercises are improving my core strength, coordination and upper body strength, which in turn benefit my climbing.

I used to do regular gym workouts and was well self-motivated, but never trained with a personal trainer. The Crossfit method of group workouts under the eye of an instructor really appeals to me, to my surprise. Group ratios are usually small enough that it is akin to having a personal trainer giving expert advice. Not to mention pushing you to get 5 more box jumps before time is up :)

Crossfit also emphasizes the need for a healthy diet to complement and support the workouts - either the Zone Diet or the Paleo diet. They are worth looking into for those concerned with weight loss but personally I am having a hard time giving up ALL starchy carbs - I need my boiled potatoes with salt on long runs!!
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Postby Augie Medina » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:45 am

thelisa wrote: I am having a hard time giving up ALL starchy carbs - I need my boiled potatoes with salt on long runs!!


Yep, on multi-hour training runs you still need carbs that get into your system real quick like baked or boiled potatoes. Of course gel pacs are an option but it's nice to have the variety of "real food" when you're out there for hours.
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Postby Wastral » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:11 pm

For mountaineering any training must work on Lower body and core. Upper body is tertiary.

For lower body, if you can't hit a trail with lots of vertical, then a stair treadmill is best followed by running. For mountaineering need to build your vertical muscles not your running muscles! So, you are actually better off on a 15% inclined treadmill than running around flat terrain in your neighborhood. WIth a 20lb pack is best I have found.

For core workout, start with situps crunches/pushups. Best is actually rock climbing meteolis pull up "jugs" where you bring your knees legs out forward and do pullups at the same time. Back needs worked too. This is the hardest to do as it requires pinning your lower body so you can lift a weight in your arms with your upper body using your back muscles. Actually running with a 20lb-40lb pack gets your back muscles into fine shape pretty much without trying along with pullups.

I have it easy. I live in Issaquah WA. I ride my bike over Grand RIdge to Tiger Mountain quite regularly and go up Tiger #2 3.1 miles 2400feet gain. OR the Chiro Trail to PooPoo Point where the hang gliders launch 1.9miles 1500 feet elevation gain. Do this a couple times a week and you have it licked. Not many people live within 10 miles of such terrain though.... Riding to marymoor to go rockclimbing on nice days. Not many people have this option either.

Brian

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thelisa wrote: I am having a hard time giving up ALL starchy carbs - I need my boiled potatoes with salt on long runs!!


Yep, on multi-hour training runs you still need carbs that get into your system real quick like baked or boiled potatoes. Of course gel pacs are an option but it's nice to have the variety of "real food" when you're out there for hours.
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Postby CClaude » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:49 pm

thelisa wrote:This is a great discussion guys. I am adding my 2 cents because I recently started going to my local Crossfit affiliate to supplement to my ultrarunning and climbing. The best way to train for any sport is to do it, of course, especially climbing since it involves good technique, not just 'generic' strength and endurance.

However, I find the variety and intensity of Crossfit exercises are improving my core strength, coordination and upper body strength, which in turn benefit my climbing.

I used to do regular gym workouts and was well self-motivated, but never trained with a personal trainer. The Crossfit method of group workouts under the eye of an instructor really appeals to me, to my surprise. Group ratios are usually small enough that it is akin to having a personal trainer giving expert advice. Not to mention pushing you to get 5 more box jumps before time is up :)

Crossfit also emphasizes the need for a healthy diet to complement and support the workouts - either the Zone Diet or the Paleo diet. They are worth looking into for those concerned with weight loss but personally I am having a hard time giving up ALL starchy carbs - I need my boiled potatoes with salt on long runs!!


Look at Clyde Soles book on training as you evaluate diets. The if you are seriously training, you need to have a variety of carbs. Yeah, proteins are converted to glycogen as well as fats, but not as efficiently as carbs. As Carmichal (Lance Armstrong's old coach) once said, high protein diets don't mix will with REAL training. Although the Zone Diet isn't too out of wack. If you want good advise either look up the Mayo Clinical website (a world class medical hospital that runs a website giving pretty good medical advise) on diet or talk to a registered dietition
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