Sorry if this has been covered 10,000 times, but what would people recommend for a 'complete' rack of ice screws (amount and size and brand0 for multi pitch ice climbs? (would be used in a variety of situations, conditions and locations) Thanks!

Black Diamond Express

2 13cm
4 16cm
2 19cm

Where you could start.... and combined with most any partners collection is more than enough to tackle waterfall ice. If your partner is family or has no gear, and that is your intent ahead of time, you will need to double up on the 16cm. Good Luck.

I like to bring one 22cm for making v-thread anchors. (19cm is probably equally as good, but that extra 3cm makes me feel just that much better about the anchor when I kick back on the rappel.)

All test data indicates that 13cm give up negligible strength to 16cm when placed to full depth. When bottomed out, even if tied off, the longer screw get dramatically weaker.

There's an argument that long screw may be better in soft, weak ice. However, a 21cm in bad ice still may pull under bodyweight.

For these reasons, I like to start up most multi-pitch ice climbs with the following, assuming screw anchors:

2x 10cm
6x 13cm
2x 16cm (2 more 13cm would be fine)
1x 19 or 22cm (for v-threads)

The nice thing about ice is that on moderate routes, you can usually stop whenever you get down to 2 screws and belay there.

Black Diamond Express are the standard for a reason. Turbo are nice, but not needed if you want to save the cash.

Autoxfil wrote:When bottomed out, even if tied off, the longer screw get dramatically weaker.

Really? How? I would have thought that if the screw is bottomed out and tied-off, presumably at the surface of the ice, what does it matter how much of top of the screw is sticking out? A 13cm and 22cm would have the same amount of screw/threads in the ice.

I know that if a long screw is bottomed out, with a lot of the screw sticking out of the ice, and the hanger is clipped, then a fall produces a lot of leverage due to the length of exposed screw, so a shorter screw is stronger in that case. But when tied off at the surface?

Real-world testing shows that the sling pulls to the end of the screw and cuts off against the hanger, or else bends the screw off. This is in Leubben's book, and I think the BD data on their webpage.

Also remember that angling the hanger of the screw down is much stronger than angling it up. So, by placing the screw at an angle to hold the sling against the ice, you also weaken the placement significantly, although not as much as when the sling slips down to the hanger and cuts off.

They make sliding hangers that you can adjust flush to any ice surface. Those are probably the best solution to having too-long screws, although I have not seen much data to back it up.

I know there has been more testing by Chris/BD since this was written, but it also has stood up to all the newer testing I've seen:

http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/i ... -test.html

I try to temper all ice screw strength discussions with this advice for newbies reading:

WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T FALL OFF

It's not like falling on rock, because even if the pro holds, it's extremely easy to snag a crampon and break your leg, knock a 800-on icicle on your partner, get an ice screw implanted in your kidney, or a tool in your skull. Only climb ice that is easy enough you are rock-solid on it all the way, and down-climb to a screw and hang when getting badly pumped and shaky.

Interesting reading. I always thought that AT A MINIMUM, one should have 7 ice screws for technical alpine terrain (something one will not solo), 4 screws for the anchors and three for running belays. Some would say bring 8 screws on a very long climb so if you ever drop one, you still have enough. Waterfall ice climbing would be more gear intensive and rather specific

Regarding the length, I like shorter screws better because where I live and play (West Coast, California) the ice is seldom so thick that a very long screw is useful. So on my rack you'll find 10cm, 13, 16 and that's it. I have none of the long ones and never needed them. I would rather have a small selection of Stoppers with me just in case I can find a placement or two to suplement the screws.

I generally agree with asmrz, here in the PNW the ice is often thin so short screws and a good selection of rock gear (a few pins, stoppers and cams) are more useful than a large rack of screws. When I go waterfall climbing in Canada I bring more and longer screws, but still bring a selection of pitons, which I have found very useful. When Colin Haley and Jed Brown climbed the F.A. of the 7,000 ft North Face of Mt Moffit in Alaska they brought two screws. Colin's justification was that if the ice was thick enough for screws it would be easy climbing. Then again Colin climbs WI7.

I don't use a 22 for V threads any more so don't carry one.

Alpine Ice ? Depending on the difficulty 6 or 8 amy be less if the rock is good. Water ice generally 8 or if it is harder 10, seldom but not unheard of 12.

1 x 10cm
6 x 13cm
4 x 16cm
1 x 19

All the talk on Colin taking 2 screws on Moffit? He mentioned taking 8 and wishing for 10 on the N face of Le Droites plus the normal set of stoppers and cams for rock grear. Nothing harder there than WI4.

Dane 1, I remember 1980s magazine article (either Rock&Ice or Climbing) about ice climbing on Tahquitz Rock in Southern California. One of the great So Cal climbers of the day, Rick Accomazzoo mentioned at the start of the article, that climbing the North Face of Les Droites was extremely good training for climbing the fully iced up North Face of Tahquitz. I always thought his was a wonderful and funny ( and totally true) statement...Sorry to the OP for the drift.
Edit: Spelling.

Grivel (Helix) Speedy's. The worlds easiest and fastest threading screw.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLsNDuS7Zkk[/youtube]

6-8 ea 12's for lead

4-6 ea 16's for stances



BTW: It's not the length of the screw that makes it stronger. It is the thread count. 13's(12 Grivel) have the exact same amount of threads as do 16's.

Autoxfil wrote:Real-world testing shows that the sling pulls to the end of the screw and cuts off against the hanger ...

Yes, I knew that can happen, but I didn't realise that's what you meant. It's a further step that means the whole placement is dangerous, as protection - the screw itself is not 'weaker'. Linguistics. Does it happen all the time? I've not read Luebben's book, but I've seen a fall onto a tied-off screw and it didn't slip down, but I agree it's dangerous and should be avoided with shorter screws.

As an aside, I knew a very well-respected UIAGM guide in the early 90s who used to often pre-rack Petzl quickdraws onto his screws, with the shaft of the screw running through the loop at one end of the quickdraw sling He'd just screw them in real hard against the ice. But then, he never fell ...

Damien,

Appears that your friend did what some of us have been doing for years as well and what Grivel has incorporated into their new "Speedy" Screw.

Again, as tests have shown, the strongest angle to insert a screw is at an upward 10-15 degs. When placed in this fashion, the 7-10mm's req'd for a draw to have space when preplaced on the shaft of the screw, will naturally be available when the area of the screw placement is pre-cleaned prior to placing the screw thus minimizing the potential "squeeze". Besides, the 7-10mm spacing necessary is not a factor when and if a fall is generated as Grivel has discovered in their extensive R&D for their new ring design that is incorporated onto the screw shaft in order to attach the ring and draw on their new "Speedy".

" always thought his was a wonderful and funny ( and totally true) statement"



Tahquitz rock tops out at 8000' in southern California. 1000' of climbing..may be? With a 30 minute approach in flips required.

Le Droites tops out at 13,000 feet and is in the middle of the alps with all that implies. Even on skis it is close to an hour approach from the GM lift and the face is a full 1600m, not feet. Easy enough to die on the approach if you aren't paying attention.

I am sure when it is in condition Tahquitz offers some fun ice and mixed. But let's not get too carried away on comparisons. Because there isn't one past both formations being granite. Tahquitz would no doubt be good training for Le Droites.

Rick Accomazzoo may well have made that comparison (although I doubt it) but if he did you can bet he wasn't being serious. Jack Roberts and Accomazzoo did le Droites N face in '77. But I'll ask Rick and Jack now that I am curious. Not the hardest climb in the alps but no comparison to anything on Tahquitz either.

Jack's picture of Rick from '77.



I know Jack's opinion mirror's my own as played in Cham togetehr this winter.

But I asked Rick...here is comment just so no on gets confused and ends up in Cham after a good winter in Tahquitz.

Rick:
"When Mike Graham and I got back from the Alps in the summer of 76, this was our
stock response to the question, "How was it?":
"Good training for the North Face of Tahquitz in winter."
Don't remember an article in a magazine, though, where this was quoted.

It was tongue in cheek of course and not even original. I can't find the quote now,
but one of the British climbers, maybe Patey, had said something like , "The Alps
are good training for winter climbing in Scotland" after one of the early visits by
the Brits to Chamonix."