Locked threads

[Buz Groshong]

if you really want to express your disgust, why not just delete all your stuff and leave?
that makes more of a statement than incessant whining.

just sayin'...

Some of us just refuse to be that immature. Oh, and protesting is not whining.

Nope, but endlessly hammering the same point over and over again makes it look like whining.

There is PnP out there if you know where to find it. No, its not the old PnP, but its better then nothing.

http://stef.schuermans.free.fr/PNP/index.php

Not asking for PnP back, just would like to freely discuss site issues (this is site feedback isn't it?). When management shows an obvious bias in their actions (or lack thereof), we should be able to discuss it without getting censored by those whose management activities we are objecting to.

Sounds like you read the PM I sent to Bob earlier today. The issue isn't PnP, it's the new direction of site management in moderating SP.

Couldn't have done that but it is obvious that we are thinking along the same lines at times. I was about to second your comment about the actions of a member who wasn't given a time-out, when the thread was locked.

[Bob Sihler]

Not asking for PnP back, just would like to freely discuss site issues (this is site feedback isn't it?). When management shows an obvious bias in their actions (or lack thereof), we should be able to discuss it without getting censored by those whose management activities we are objecting to.

Exactly. I was disappointed to see PnP go, but I don't really care too much about that itself. Actually, it's a little nice not wasting time there.

It's the reasons for it, and the squelching of talk about it, that rankle people. But some don't get that, or don't care since they like the result.

[xDoogiex]

In before getting locked!

I agree with buz. Everyone contributes in one way or another. There should be a bigger vote on things. Stef's site rules for the fact we can start poles and have a democracy

[Castlereagh]

I was about to second your comment about the actions of a member who wasn't given a time-out, when the thread was locked.

I see. You're another one of those who wants to ban on bias alone, reason be damned, huh? Isn't there a new PnP to go and whine in?

Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I actually don't think Buz is that category of yours.

[Buz Groshong]

I was about to second your comment about the actions of a member who wasn't given a time-out, when the thread was locked.

I see. You're another one of those who wants to ban on bias alone, reason be damned, huh? Isn't there a new PnP to go and whine in?




NOW its' gonna be locked.
Good riddance.

You did something you should have known was wrong. You should have been given a time-out for it. I don't think that shows bias. Ejnar did something a bit less wrong (and also not against any codified rules) and was given a time out for it. Who is showing a bias?

[John Duffield]

Life is good. I'm going to write a TR instead.
Contribute.

[Aaron Johnson]

BUZ:

How many threads are going to get locked to prevent people from expressing their disgust with management.

I personally have yet to lock a thread. Other staff members have elected to do so and I support their actions. We did agree to lock the "Why is PnP Gone?" thread at 100 pages. As to why, that will be interpreted by many folks many different ways.

chewbacca:

You mean what people weren't able to express in 100 pages? How many pages does one need?

mconnell:

Looks like all of them, if needed to keep opinions from being stated. Seems to me that the "Site Feedback" forum should be deleted as well, since feedback is no longer welcome here.

I have no problem with gripes and complaints as long as it's constructive and a reasonable solution is also presented. If it's just going to go on forever, there is no point in continually going on and on and on and on.

Bob Sihler:

This place is really getting absurd.

It was absurd the day PnP was created. The smallest area of SP became SP's biggest problem, and had very little to do with SP's main mission. Yet look at all the trouble and grief it caused, all the controversy, all the countless PMs and emails. SP is a mountain climbing, hiking, canyoneering, etc. information web site. Always has been.

Gary Schenk:

What do you mean "getting"?

anita:

if you really want to express your disgust, why not just delete all your stuff and leave?
that makes more of a statement than incessant whining.

People forget that they are free to do just that. It happens regularly. Not often, though, as many might like to think in light of PnP's demise. Frankly, we've only had about two people request a departure as a result of the PnP episode. We've had around 5 people say they are COMING BACK because of PnP's departure, though.

I know. I'm a liar.

patssox09:

Lots of people are upset at SP right now. Some have already left and taken their stuff with them. I think it would be to the detriment of SP at this point if everyone who was upset with recent events deleted their stuff and left. For purely selfish reasons I hope that it doesn't happen.

Lots more are thrilled with SP right now. I get 1 or 2 encouraging PMs daily from the members. Those that leave over PnP certainly have that choice, but perhaps one should examine their reason for leaving. Are they leaving for selfish reasons? If so, did they join SP for PnP, or for SP? If they joined SP for PnP, they missed the point (and probably figured this out on their own) and it's best that they go elsewhwere to get whatever it is they wanted from SP. If they joined SP for what it is, chances are they won't leave SP, because PnP is not what SP is about.

ryhang:

"Lots" of people ? Looks to me it's just the same old p & p crowd .. the forum addicts. These folks are probably better served by actually getting outside and / or finding satisfying hobbies.

This does seem more likely.

Jason H:

True, none of the people that left were big contributes.

Personally, I was sad to see Goldenhopper leave, he is cool guy but he had his reasons.

Folks that did not contribute and were here for PnP only likely missed the point. They came to SP for something else. Everyone has their reasons for doing whatever it is they do. We can't keep every single person here, no matter how much we wail. People just do what they do.

patssox09:

Some who are considering leaving are big contributors. SummitPost is a great website because it generates its resources from a wealth of people all over the world. It would be nothing without user contributions. The Forums were but a small part of SummitPost, and PnP a small part of the forums.

Again, we can't make anyone stay at SP. They are free to do as they wish with their material. If they're a major contributor, they've probably examined the situation already and have determined it is the best course of action for them.

I have also been contacted by several major contributors who have chosen to lay low and bow out until this storm passes by. They just want SP as it should be and they see no point in hanging around during the storm. I don't blame them. I take frequent breaks from SP too. I recommend it for everyone.

The fact is PnP kept all that trash quarantined in one place. Not only now are you seeing the spillover into other forums (ie this thread), but if people left and pulled their contributions with them then the "sewage" of PnP will completely spill over to and subtract from the quality of the most important of the site.

People who insist on spreading the garbage all over SP just because their so-called "right" to PnP was taken away are selfish. Think about it. Why try to ruin SP for everyone else? Revenge? Over something that SP never was in the first place?

buz:

Some of us just refuse to be that immature. Oh, and protesting is not whining.

Nothing wrong with protesting, until the horse is dead, anyway. (See below).

Jason H:

Nope, but endlessly hammering the same point over and over again makes it look like whining.

There is PnP out there if you know where to find it. No, its not the old PnP, but its better then nothing.

Well put.

squishy:

Just looks like an opportunity for some newer members to take over some pages...

Certainly one way to look at it.

buz:

Not asking for PnP back, just would like to freely discuss site issues (this is site feedback isn't it?). When management shows an obvious bias in their actions (or lack thereof), we should be able to discuss it without getting censored by those whose management activities we are objecting to.

I've a feeling my staff counterparts feel there is nothing more to be discussed, and I don't blame them. It should be obvious to everyone after 7 years of mayhem. Obvious bias, or lack thereof certainly indicates weaknesses and imperfections. We all have them. But it doesn't mean we don't care. We DO care about SP, and that is why PnP is gone. There's nothing more to discuss. (Read further).

mconnell:

Sounds like you read the PM I sent to Bob earlier today. The issue isn't PnP, it's the new direction of site management in moderating SP.

The issue WAS PnP. It was contradictory to what was originally intended for SP to be. The direction is nothing new. It only seems new. People don't know SP without PnP. SP is still SP. Though it got the most attention, PnP is TINY compared to the rest of SP, which is MASSIVE. That's just wrong. SP is so much more than PnP could ever be.

xDoogiex:

I agree with buz. Everyone contributes in one way or another. There should be a bigger vote on things.

squishy:

Polls only work if your communities population participates in the forums...SP's general population does not, nor do they care about PnP or how it was administrated...

And now I come to the main point in my participation in this discussion.

In the past, I have invited opinions and discussions about how SP should be managed, including addressing those that wanted me removed. I was interested in how the membership felt certain matters should be handled. Through such exchanges, we have addressed matters on the home page, the SP page structure and so forth. Those are great exchanges and I'm sure we'll see more of those in the future.

But ultimately, SP is a privately owned web site.

Those that participate here need to understand this. Members have no vote...on anything. Members have no say...on anything. If you do, it is given to you because "management" cares about your opiniuon. But if they have made their decision, members must either live by that decision, or go elsewhere where they don't have to live by management's decision, in otherwords, go where they'll get what they're looking for and be happy. If SP is unfulfilling, there is nothing stopping you from departing.

You are free to disagree with "management" in Site Feedback. Management is ually tolerant of these matters. But if they're going NOWHERE, management is certainly free to disagree with those that disagree with them and act as they see fit.

If Josh, Matt or Ryle are displeased, they'll let us know and likely run us off. But until then, members need to remember, SP is not a democracy. SP is a privately owned web site.

The end.

[JasonH]

BUZ:

How many threads are going to get locked to prevent people from expressing their disgust with management.

I personally have yet to lock a thread. Other staff members have elected to do so and I support their actions. We did agree to lock the "Why is PnP Gone?" thread at 100 pages. As to why, that will be interpreted by many folks many different ways.

chewbacca:

You mean what people weren't able to express in 100 pages? How many pages does one need?

mconnell:

Looks like all of them, if needed to keep opinions from being stated. Seems to me that the "Site Feedback" forum should be deleted as well, since feedback is no longer welcome here.

I have no problem with gripes and complaints as long as it's constructive and a reasonable solution is also presented. If it's just going to go on forever, there is no point in continually going on and on and on and on.

Bob Sihler:

This place is really getting absurd.

It was absurd the day PnP was created. The smallest area of SP became SP's biggest problem, and had very little to do with SP's main mission. Yet look at all the trouble and grief it caused, all the controversy, all the countless PMs and emails. SP is a mountain climbing, hiking, canyoneering, etc. information web site. Always has been.

Gary Schenk:

What do you mean "getting"?

anita:

if you really want to express your disgust, why not just delete all your stuff and leave?
that makes more of a statement than incessant whining.

People forget that they are free to do just that. It happens regularly. Not often, though, as many might like to think in light of PnP's demise. Frankly, we've only had about two people request a departure as a result of the PnP episode. We've had around 5 people say they are COMING BACK because of PnP's departure, though.

I know. I'm a liar.

patssox09:

Lots of people are upset at SP right now. Some have already left and taken their stuff with them. I think it would be to the detriment of SP at this point if everyone who was upset with recent events deleted their stuff and left. For purely selfish reasons I hope that it doesn't happen.

Lots more are thrilled with SP right now. I get 1 or 2 encouraging PMs daily from the members. Those that leave over PnP certainly have that choice, but perhaps one should examine their reason for leaving. Are they leaving for selfish reasons? If so, did they join SP for PnP, or for SP? If they joined SP for PnP, they missed the point (and probably figured this out on their own) and it's best that they go elsewhwere to get whatever it is they wanted from SP. If they joined SP for what it is, chances are they won't leave SP, because PnP is not what SP is about.

ryhang:

"Lots" of people ? Looks to me it's just the same old p & p crowd .. the forum addicts. These folks are probably better served by actually getting outside and / or finding satisfying hobbies.

This does seem more likely.

Jason H:

True, none of the people that left were big contributes.

Personally, I was sad to see Goldenhopper leave, he is cool guy but he had his reasons.

Folks that did not contribute and were here for PnP only likely missed the point. They came to SP for something else. Everyone has their reasons for doing whatever it is they do. We can't keep every single person here, no matter how much we wail. People just do what they do.

patssox09:

Some who are considering leaving are big contributors. SummitPost is a great website because it generates its resources from a wealth of people all over the world. It would be nothing without user contributions. The Forums were but a small part of SummitPost, and PnP a small part of the forums.

Again, we can't make anyone stay at SP. They are free to do as they wish with their material. If they're a major contributor, they've probably examined the situation already and have determined it is the best course of action for them.

I have also been contacted by several major contributors who have chosen to lay low and bow out until this storm passes by. They just want SP as it should be and they see no point in hanging around during the storm. I don't blame them. I take frequent breaks from SP too. I recommend it for everyone.

The fact is PnP kept all that trash quarantined in one place. Not only now are you seeing the spillover into other forums (ie this thread), but if people left and pulled their contributions with them then the "sewage" of PnP will completely spill over to and subtract from the quality of the most important of the site.

People who insist on spreading the garbage all over SP just because their so-called "right" to PnP was taken away are selfish. Think about it. Why try to ruin SP for everyone else? Revenge? Over something that SP never was in the first place?

buz:

Some of us just refuse to be that immature. Oh, and protesting is not whining.

Nothing wrong with protesting, until the horse is dead, anyway. (See below).

Jason H:

Nope, but endlessly hammering the same point over and over again makes it look like whining.

There is PnP out there if you know where to find it. No, its not the old PnP, but its better then nothing.

Well put.

squishy:

Just looks like an opportunity for some newer members to take over some pages...

Certainly one way to look at it.

buz:

Not asking for PnP back, just would like to freely discuss site issues (this is site feedback isn't it?). When management shows an obvious bias in their actions (or lack thereof), we should be able to discuss it without getting censored by those whose management activities we are objecting to.

I've a feeling my staff counterparts feel there is nothing more to be discussed, and I don't blame them. It should be obvious to everyone after 7 years of mayhem. Obvious bias, or lack thereof certainly indicates weaknesses and imperfections. We all have them. But it doesn't mean we don't care. We DO care about SP, and that is why PnP is gone. There's nothing more to discuss. (Read further).

mconnell:

Sounds like you read the PM I sent to Bob earlier today. The issue isn't PnP, it's the new direction of site management in moderating SP.

The issue WAS PnP. It was contradictory to what was originally intended for SP to be. The direction is nothing new. It only seems new. People don't know SP without PnP. SP is still SP. Though it got the most attention, PnP is TINY compared to the rest of SP, which is MASSIVE. That's just wrong. SP is so much more than PnP could ever be.

xDoogiex:

I agree with buz. Everyone contributes in one way or another. There should be a bigger vote on things.

squishy:

Polls only work if your communities population participates in the forums...SP's general population does not, nor do they care about PnP or how it was administrated...

And now I come to the main point in my participation in this discussion.

In the past, I have invited opinions and discussions about how SP should be managed, including addressing those that wanted me removed. I was interested in how the membership felt certain matters should be handled. Through such exchanges, we have addressed matters on the home page, the SP page structure and so forth. Those are great exchanges and I'm sure we'll see more of those in the future.

But ultimately, SP is a privately owned web site.

Those that participate here need to understand this. Members have no vote...on anything. Members have no say...on anything. If you do, it is given to you because "management" cares about your opiniuon. But if they have made their decision, members must either live by that decision, or go elsewhere where they don't have to live by management's decision, in otherwords, go where they'll get what they're looking for and be happy. If SP is unfulfilling, there is nothing stopping you from departing.

You are free to disagree with "management" in Site Feedback. Management is ually tolerant of these matters. But if they're going NOWHERE, management is certainly free to disagree with those that disagree with them and act as they see fit.

If Josh, Matt or Ryle are displeased, they'll let us know and likely run us off. But until then, members need to remember, SP is not a democracy. SP is a privately owned web site.

The end.

Now lock the thread.

[Aaron Johnson]

Jason H:

Now lock the thread.

...

[MoapaPk]

You mean what people weren't able to express in 100 pages? How many pages does one need?

..in before the lock.

I'm probably responsible. I scared people when I suggested that if we got 100 pages, the world would end. With that alert, which registered "orange," they had no choice. We have to take this world-ending chatter seriously.

[Zzyzx]

What I find interesting is that the people who now seem to be so happy about PnP being gone are the very same people who posted there regularly. In fact they posted on PnP more frequently than in any other forum. No need to list the names, we all know who they are.
Any explanation?

Like others said, I don't really care about whether PnP is here or not. Rarely did I follow what was said there and I posted on PnP even less frequently. What I care about (and apparently I'm not alone here) is the censorship, bias on the part of moderators that's been there for a long time and the style of management, which locking of the threads is only one aspect of. I deleted my contributions long time ago because of that (and it had NOTHING to do with PnP).
Looking back it was a good decision. I wish I could say that it wasn't though.

[The Chief]

What I find interesting is that the people who now seem to be so happy about PnP being gone are the very same people who posted there regularly. In fact they posted on PnP more frequently than in any other forum. No need to list the names, we all know who they are.

Excellent point.

While we are at it, some of those have little to no route beta, mtn data, tech exp etc contributions to the site as a whole.

Just saying....

[Bob Sihler]

Aaron's right. Time to move along.

Was that a tribal fire?

[Buz Groshong]

Agree.

[Dave K]

But ultimately, SP is a privately owned web site.

Those that participate here need to understand this. Members have no vote...on anything. Members have no say...on anything. If you do, it is given to you because "management" cares about your opiniuon.

but I paid Dave K for a premium subscription service!

Subscription locked.