Alpinisto wrote:

bird wrote:Doesn't Will Gadd recommend to clip a tool in his book?

Dunno. Will check when I get home tonight.

I ain't no Will Gadd on ice, though...more like Will Ferrell.

When I get pumped, my partner doesn't yell "Clip a tool!" up from the belay.

He yells, "Clip, Tool!!"

Badump dum... "I'm here til Tuesday...Try the fish."

brandon wrote:Well look, our original poster is out there crushing it on some alpine ice. Throwing down. Wants to know how to be more efficient, regarding leashes and placing screws.

All kinds of retarded advice like 'sawing out ledges', elbows thru leashes, attaching and unattaching daisy chains. All crap that adds tons of time, rather than saving any.

I stand behind my advice as definitive. But hey, everybody's an internet expert.

Actually, he wanted advice about how to do it. While it's never too early to learn efficiency, I think his question was more about proficiency. Let's not overwhelm the guy with too much information and 'tude, if that's still possible.

I had a guide suggest to me the technique of clipping a draw to the spike of a well placed ax, and then clipping in the rope, while placing a screw (and then using the same draw to clip to the screw). I also read (I think) about this technique in one of Craig Luebben’s books. Doesn't mean it's right, so I am hoping to get some insight.

I agree with the comments about wasting time, but using the same draw you will ultimately clip to the screw wastes very little time (the time it takes to clip/unclip to/from the spike). So, if it provides some protection, why not?

I am not talking about hanging on the ax, just clipping the rope to it. Nor am I talking about using a static tether (agree that is not a good idea).

I see three possibilities:

(1) You don't fall, clip to the screw and move on. All you waste is the little bit of time I described above.

(2) You fall, not very far, and the ax holds. You have avoided the longer fall to the last piece of pro (more risk of injury). Granted, you might fall out of reach of the placed ax -- but if you fall to the next piece of pro, that ax will be a lot farther away.

(3) You fall, and the ax pops, and you fall to the next piece of pro, which holds (hopefully). Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down). In any event, your ax won't be lost since it's connected to the rope - you should be able to recover it.

What am I missing?

I had a guide suggest to me the technique of clipping a draw to the spike of a well placed ax, and then clipping in the rope, while placing a screw (and then using the same draw to clip to the screw). I also read (I think) about this technique in one of Craig Luebben’s books. Doesn't mean it's right, so I am hoping to get some insight.

I agree with the comments about wasting time, but using the same draw you will ultimately clip to the screw wastes very little time (the time it takes to clip/unclip to/from the spike). So, if it provides some protection, why not?

I am not talking about hanging on the ax, just clipping the rope to it. Nor am I talking about using a static tether (agree that is not a good idea).

I see three possibilities:

(1) You don't fall, clip to the screw and move on. All you waste is the little bit of time I described above.

(2) You fall, not very far, and the ax holds. You have avoided the longer fall to the last piece of pro (more risk of injury). Granted, you might fall out of reach of the placed ax -- but if you fall to the next piece of pro, that ax will be a lot farther away.

(3) You fall, and the ax pops, and you fall to the next piece of pro, which holds (hopefully). Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down). In any event, your ax won't be lost since it's connected to the rope - you should be able to recover it.

What am I missing?

kozman18 wrote:Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down).

And should follow the rope down to...

drjohnso1182 wrote:

kozman18 wrote:Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down).

And should follow the rope down to...

Wouldn't it fall to you? Or, maybe get hung up on the rope between you and the last pirce of pro -- but no worse than it being stuck where you were trying to place the screw. I'm asking . . .

knoback wrote:Having to lower from the tool, or if you're lucky, having a rope tossed to you from above so you can lower safely. Also getting the double whammy on your last screw when the tool blows and you hit the screw with a pre-stretched rope. You can alleviate problem #2 with double ropes; won't do a thing about problem #1.

Good points -- that's why I asked.

knoback wrote:Having to lower from the tool, or if you're lucky, having a rope tossed to you from above so you can lower safely. Also getting the double whammy on your last screw when the tool blows and you hit the screw with a pre-stretched rope. You can alleviate problem #2 with double ropes; won't do a thing about problem #1.

Good points -- that's why I asked. Thanks.

Gadd doesn't go into detail but says "Sometimes it's a good idea to clip the rope into your high tool while placing the screw."
IMO, can't be that dumb an idea if Will Gadd recommends it at times.

bird wrote:Gadd doesn't go into detail but says "Sometimes it's a good idea to clip the rope into your high tool while placing the screw."
IMO, can't be that dumb an idea if Will Gadd recommends it at times.

Yeah but what does Chuck Norris do ?

gobriango wrote:Yeah but what does Chuck Norris do ?

Chuck Norris doesn't climb ice...






...with ropes, protection or tools.

Chuck Norris free-solos WI7. He punches out holds with his Fists of Steel.

When he tops out, Chuck Norris pisses off the summit, thereby creating a new WI6 (at least) waterfall line with his own urine.

Chuck Norris eats guys like Will Gadd for a light snack.

kozman18 wrote:

drjohnso1182 wrote:

kozman18 wrote:Your ax will follow, but I think the risk of being hit by it is small given that it's connected by the draw to the rope (and should follow the rope down).

And should follow the rope down to...

Wouldn't it fall to you? Or, maybe get hung up on the rope between you and the last pirce of pro -- but no worse than it being stuck where you were trying to place the screw. I'm asking . . .

I'm guessing that if the tool were to pull, it would be coming down in a hurry with the rope guiding it right to you. Haven't tried it, though. Don't look up, I guess.