squishy wrote:

Dave K wrote:

Rob wrote:

butitsadryheat wrote:So then it seems we would all benefit from new, additional elves? Then the workload would drop off? Wouldn't that dilute said power?

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

You know, it might surprise you guys how much time and work we put into trying to save what we ultimately concluded was an unworkable mess, and how bullshit and vitriol was directed at us in the process.

But no, we must be power hungry.

You biased and hypocritical power mongers...how could you...If we need elves for the new PnP we know where to turn right? blahahahahahaha

Deleted my initial reply. Mis-read that as squishy was going to assume elfdom in the new pnp. What a thought.

mrh wrote:Also I have to wonder about the Off Route forum. Why do we have it? Because people like to have a place to go talk about things other than mountains? Good idea. But how long can we talk about the dozen or so topics there? No one but an elf can start something there so can we go through an elf to start a discussion we think people would like? Sounds like more work for the elves and of course people can argue there as well. Is the idea to let those topics get tired and eventually dump it too? There must have been room in elfdom plans for allowing an off topic place or we wouldn't have it. I mean long term what is the plan for that forum?

The Off Route was initially proposed by me to save the "Who Was He?" thread. Though I've never participated in it, there seemed a dedicated group of SPers that enjoyed it without ever stirring things up in PnP. A small effort to save part of the baby while tossing out the bath water. Other elves and members piped in with other non-controversial threads that could be saved. A second purpose was to provide a place to move threads that skew off the rails. If I've learned anything, it's that deleting a thread will bring out the speculation in volumes. Not only about why a thread was deleted, but what its contents were. People skew the contents, change it around, and just make stuff up if it suits them. By moving it to Off Route, it at least stops speculation of the contents. There is no long term plan for that forum, to answer your last question. We'll see how it goes.

Bob Burd wrote:

mrh wrote:Also I have to wonder about the Off Route forum. Why do we have it? Because people like to have a place to go talk about things other than mountains? Good idea. But how long can we talk about the dozen or so topics there? No one but an elf can start something there so can we go through an elf to start a discussion we think people would like? Sounds like more work for the elves and of course people can argue there as well. Is the idea to let those topics get tired and eventually dump it too? There must have been room in elfdom plans for allowing an off topic place or we wouldn't have it. I mean long term what is the plan for that forum?

The Off Route was initially proposed by me to save the "Who Was He?" thread. Though I've never participated in it, there seemed a dedicated group of SPers that enjoyed it without ever stirring things up in PnP. A small effort to save part of the baby while tossing out the bath water. Other elves and members piped in with other non-controversial threads that could be saved. A second purpose was to provide a place to move threads that skew off the rails. If I've learned anything, it's that deleting a thread will bring out the speculation in volumes. Not only about why a thread was deleted, but what its contents were. People skew the contents, change it around, and just make stuff up if it suits them. By moving it to Off Route, it at least stops speculation of the contents. There is no long term plan for that forum, to answer your last question. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the reply Bob.

Dave K wrote:

Rob wrote:

butitsadryheat wrote:So then it seems we would all benefit from new, additional elves? Then the workload would drop off? Wouldn't that dilute said power?

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

You know, it might surprise you guys how much time and work we put into trying to save what we ultimately concluded was an unworkable mess, and how bullshit and vitriol was directed at us in the process.

But no, we must be power hungry.

Dave, thank you, and the other elves, and the owners for your efforts providing SummitPost. It is a great website and resource for the us, the users. It is so unfortunate that you have to put up with any vitriol. Please continue to do what you have to do to make SummitPost what it is.

jspeigl wrote:

Dave K wrote:

Rob wrote:

butitsadryheat wrote:So then it seems we would all benefit from new, additional elves? Then the workload would drop off? Wouldn't that dilute said power?

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

You know, it might surprise you guys how much time and work we put into trying to save what we ultimately concluded was an unworkable mess, and how bullshit and vitriol was directed at us in the process.

But no, we must be power hungry.

Dave, thank you, and the other elves, and the owners for your efforts providing SummitPost. It is a great website and resource for the us, the users. It is so unfortunate that you have to put up with any vitriol. Please continue to do what you have to do to make SummitPost what it is.

+1

Gary Schenk wrote:

Bob Burd wrote:The Off Route was initially proposed by me to save the "Who Was He?" thread. Though I've never participated in it, there seemed a dedicated group of SPers that enjoyed it without ever stirring things up in PnP. A small effort to save part of the baby while tossing out the bath water. Other elves and members piped in with other non-controversial threads that could be saved. A second purpose was to provide a place to move threads that skew off the rails. If I've learned anything, it's that deleting a thread will bring out the speculation in volumes. Not only about why a thread was deleted, but what its contents were. People skew the contents, change it around, and just make stuff up if it suits them. By moving it to Off Route, it at least stops speculation of the contents. There is no long term plan for that forum, to answer your last question. We'll see how it goes.

Nice try, Bob. But we see through your lies. It's all about elfdom. The heady feel of power, the women, the money, the elf conferences in Aruba. Truly, you can't be blamed for giving into the temptation, many a lesser man would have done the same. (No, not you, Bryan)

Don't forget the secret meetings at Bohemian Grove!

In mid-July each year, Bohemian Grove hosts a three-week encampment of some of the most powerful men in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove

Ya, Dave K is one of the most power-hungry dudes I can think of ..

Aaron Johnson wrote:Folks must remember much goes on that they never hear about.

Aaron - I definitely understand that. I've been developing and maintaining web sites longer than most people know that they existed (did my first http server install and HTML pages in 1993) and have a good idea what's involved. As with most people, I'm much better at pointing out what I think is done wrong than what I see being done right. The efforts of all of the elves is very much appreciated. While I might disagree with the way you implemented the changes around PnP, I don't disagree with the change. I would probably have done the same 6.999 years ago. (But then I wouldn't know that the entire world is going to end due to libs and global warming, nor would I have ever even guessed that llamas make better lovers!)

Anyway, bitching and whining aside, thanks to all the elves. Without your help, I expect that Josh and Co. would have let this site die long ago.

zzyzx:

When you say that Josh, Ryle and (?) Matt own the site, what is it exactly that they own? All of the photos, trip reports, mountain pages and beta on this site are intellectual property of the respective members who created / submitted them. None of the owners of this website or the "management" owns any of that (other than what they themselves submitted). So pretty much other than the framework of SP the owners don't own anything else here.

Correct.

Even though the information is stored here, it is still the property of the individual SP users and can be removed by them at any time.
So have you thought about what SP would be if most of the members deleted their contributions (which THEY legally own)?

Yes indeed.

What's the point then of telling everybody that their opinion in essence is irrelevant because the site is privately own? I'm really surprised to hear it from you Aaron. It is similar to the attitude of many government representatives. They tend to forget who put them there and who's paying their salaries.

In some cases, "the people" and their opinion cannot be considered. Be sure to read my post carefully. In the past, we have put many decisions to the members. This is one instance where we cannot. This is the last time I wil address this aspect of this issue.

I have not forgotten who put me and the rest of the staff here in this position. They are free to remove us at any time, obviously.

I also would like to hear what you have to say about the "Off-route" board. It is pretty much a heavily censored version of PnP with most of the threads 100% unrelated to climbing and taken directly from PnP!!!

Members requested that these threads be saved. My fellow staff members agreed.

If you say that SP is about mountains and related activities and there's no need for PnP, why don't you delete that "Off-route" stuff?

Agreed.

How come that the same people who say they are glad that PnP is gone keep posting stuff irrelevant to climbing in "Off-routes".

Very good point.

When is the management going to show some consistency, transparency, integrity and respect for those who over the years made this site what it is?

We get PMs every day from members who feel we've done just that.

Or are you going to instead lock / delete this thread?

I have personally locked no threads.

The latter is what at this point I expect from the "management".

Your expectation may or may not be correct. I have no intention of locking the thread.

Bryan Benn:

SP is far bigger than just a comparatively small number who can't take the changes or the way the site is managed.

Thanks Bryan.

mrh:

I have to wonder then what solutions to what problem he was referring to?

Hmmm. Yes indeed.

butitsadryheat:

So, the elves were inundated by e-mails and PMs about how some members were extremely bothered by the mere existence of PnP, since it was a climbing site, and it was offensive to them. And they were so bothered, that they may have been threatening to close their accounts with SP, causing the loss of material and beta? So the elves acted?

You're on the right track. I'm not at liberty to add further on this aspect. My apologies.

Now, since the deletion of PnP, there are members who are upset about it, and have threatened to leave SP and take their material and beta with them, and have their accounts deleted, and have now expressed their feeligns here instead of by PM. But now, the elves are basically saying, sorry, but if you must...then go ahead, leave.

I've honored three such requests.

Rob:

The elves were bad parents for PnP.

The intent was to leave PnP alone. Participants there made it impossible not to leave alone. Read my posts referred to elsewhere. Carefully.

No, the current elves value their power too much to let it go, or share it.

Such magnificent ignorance!

Please remember members don't know everything, can't know everything and never will know everything about the management of SP.

Gary Schenk:

Nice try, Bob. But we see through your lies. It's all about elfdom. The heady feel of power, the women, the money, the elf conferences in Aruba. Truly, you can't be blamed for giving into the temptation, many a lesser man would have done the same.

jspeigl:

Dave, thank you, and the other elves, and the owners for your efforts providing SummitPost. It is a great website and resource for the us, the users. It is so unfortunate that you have to put up with any vitriol. Please continue to do what you have to do to make SummitPost what it is.

Thanks.

rhyang:

Ya, Dave K is one of the most power-hungry dudes I can think of ..

I'm having to wrestle it from him all the time.

mconnell:

Aaron - I definitely understand that. I've been developing and maintaining web sites longer than most people know that they existed (did my first http server install and HTML pages in 1993) and have a good idea what's involved. As with most people, I'm much better at pointing out what I think is done wrong than what I see being done right. The efforts of all of the elves is very much appreciated. While I might disagree with the way you implemented the changes around PnP, I don't disagree with the change. I would probably have done the same 6.999 years ago. (But then I wouldn't know that the entire world is going to end due to libs and global warming, nor would I have ever even guessed that llamas make better lovers!)

Anyway, bitching and whining aside, thanks to all the elves. Without your help, I expect that Josh and Co. would have let this site die long ago.

Thanks mconnell for your input and reading between the lines. It has been a struggle, but we're certain it's best for SP to stay this course. The way the changes were implemented were indeed atypical, but necessary in this case. I too was unaware that the world was going to end due to libs and global warming, but I missed the part about the llamas-probably a good thing!

It's very possible the site would have died without the staff, but I think Josh and Ryle realized this early on and that is when they brought Matt, SP's third owner, into the "fray" as it were. Matt and I are good friends and have gotten together in person several times. It's comforting to know SP's foundation is still solid. I hope this last paragraph isn't overlooked.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

hansw wrote:

That is great hansw!

mconnell wrote:llamas make better lovers!

Of course !

Lolli wrote:

Aaron Johnson wrote:

Or are you going to instead lock / delete this thread?

I have personally locked no threads.

Impressive solidarity.


Normal rule of management is to present a unified face and never show dissent outward after making a decision.
Another one is to not backstab others in same management group by undermining their decisions.

What about making passive aggressive comments to your managers when you disagree with them? As a manager myself I would not stand for that, personally.

Lolli wrote:

Aaron Johnson wrote:

Or are you going to instead lock / delete this thread?

I have personally locked no threads.

Impressive solidarity.


Normal rule of management is to present a unified face and never show dissent outward after making a decision.
Another one is to not backstab others in same management group by undermining their decisions.

Well, none of us claimed to be "normal".

I could make a similar statement, "I have banned no one since PnP was removed." (true, btw)
That doesn't mean I disagree with the bannings that were done. And I didn't take Aaron's statement as a backstab in any sense. I believe he stated previously that he supported steps taken by other elves. Undoubtedly we have different styles, I think that is to be expected. But we all have what we believe are SP's best interests in mind and more importantly, trust each other to have that same regard.