Moap, what on earth are you talking about? I was not disagreeing with you. I was not agreeing with you either. Who doesn't know that knots break at their base?

Flem bend stronger than overhand? Yes, what isn't stronger than overhand? Both legs come out the same whole making a VERY sharp bend creating all the stress on only the outer part of the rope.
Flem bend stronger than DF? Is it miniscully stronger? Yes, we are talking a percentage point or so from what I have read.
Only a blood knot is stronger than Flemish bend/double fishermens as far as I know.

Provide reference? For what opinion? I didn't state any opinion at all.

I suppose my opinion that "no one trusts the overhand or fig 8 without backup" part is opinion as all those I have seen using the overhand use a double overhand. I have seen lots of people use DF as well. I personally have not seen someone using the fig 8.

My seen opinion, based on experience with those I have climbed with over the last 30 years, also aligns with the stated link up above that I said was baloney. http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html Baloney because I have never seen anyone use single EDK. Others on this thread say they do and then look at his testing and think a single EDK is still a good option? I have seen single EDK capsize and pull through. Boggles the mind anyone would think single EDK is safe especially in icy conditions quite often seen in alpine conditions with wet ropes.

His testing shows fig 8 and overhand capsizing. What he never tested was a backup knot tied on top of the other. He didn't because as we all know a backup knot tied on top of the original, whichever type knot used, makes capsizing a moot point. A moot point as it stops the capsizing dead in its tracks as capsizing force is very small relative to the force on the rope creating the rolling action to begin with. Backup knots do not allow the knot in question to flip and therefore create rolling along the rope axis length. Same reason simple hitches work(flipped loop). Crappy knot by itself, but if you put enough of them on then it works.

I'll stick to flem bend.

MoapaPk wrote:Also note that the quoted "strength" of knots is often very misleading, as testing is normally done with the knot tied around a rod (e.g., http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mcl ... n_2008.pdf). .

WOA! Stop!

That university kid who did the testing did it wrong. Around a rod? Yikes. That is NOT how knots are used in climbing other than hitches or tie in to harness. Otherwise all it shows is that fig 8 is stronger than overhand(yea we know). All of his tests are not done in the tieing two ropes together orientation, so his testing is completely pointless to this discussion.

The kid really needs to take a class in how to write as well. His lead "conclusions" was that he managed to actually do some testing between CoD sessions, bong hits, beer pong, and dating(doubtful)...

In short this was written in about 2 hours the night before the report was due. Maybe the day it was due.

Relax wrote:I suppose my opinion that "no one trusts the overhand or fig 8 without backup" part is opinion as all those I have seen using the overhand use a double overhand. I have seen lots of people use DF as well. I personally have not seen someone using the fig 8.

One more time:
http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html
Read the part about wet ropes. You are moving the goalposts; the OP asked about raps, and most of those are not done with wet and icy ropes. But I bet a lot of knots get tied incorrectly when conditions are wet and icy.

"relax," your disdainful initial post was begging for a response. If you read my comments and don't quote out of context, you'll see I made a simple request: be quantitative, back up your claims.
I've looked for the reasoning behind tail lengths for some time. There is a youtube video in which the guy recommends tail lengths of 6 FEET. There are many statements about what "everyone knows," which can't be traced to controlled tests or well-characterized accidents.