Bob Burd wrote:I suspect this may be a matter of drought conditions making the route tougher. Earlier in the season and in most years, this 12-foot section is probably still covered in snow/ice. This photo from Sep 22, 2002 shows old snow covering your class 4 section:

This is indeed the case. Here is the photo from July, 4, 2015

Simkin wrote:You can die falling in your bathtub. ... I would suspect most people would say the rating is still class 3.

Why don't you come closer and repeat what you said?

asmrz wrote:I could post dozen of climbs in the Sierra rated class 3, 4 or easy 5th, which have moves much harder than the overall rating.

Can you humor us and name a few of the c3/c4 ones? I assume these harder moves that you refer to can't be bypassed while staying on-route?

tbaranski wrote:

asmrz wrote:I could post dozen of climbs in the Sierra rated class 3, 4 or easy 5th, which have moves much harder than the overall rating.

Can you humor us and name a few of the c3/c4 ones? I assume these harder moves that you refer to can't be bypassed while staying on-route?

Ten days and no reply. Apparently he can't.

Reading comprehension.

Simkin wrote:Ten days and no reply. Apparently he can't.

How unfortunate. I was looking forward to it.

Don't know about you guys, but a few people on this site actually climb between postings. I just returned from 30 days in J Tree.To those that would like to be humored, here we go:

North Ridge Lone Pine Peak. Rated 5.4, at least 5.7 if you find the easiest line

Lone Pine Peak-East Ridge. Rated 4th class, at least 5.6 by the easiest way.

Carl Heller East Ridge, 4th class. Pretty stout rating, especially in early season. The gully at the top retains ice till late July. Very sporting for 4th class. The short face above the notch is 5th class.

Mt Clark NW Arete. Class 4 . Ask anyone who climbed the arete, there is 5.6 there and a lot of 4th.

Mt Thompson -The Ridge, class 3. Well known Sierra sandbag. Technical (5th class) climbing. Ask anyone who's been on it.

The Hermit. Class 3, There is some 4th class in several places, the summit block by the easiest route is 5.6, and what moves!! Go try it and report here (5.8+???). The other line on the block is very hard 5.8 off width

Mt Muir East Ridge, class 4. Go climb it and tell me where the 4th class is (5.7???)

N Palisade from the U Notch via the Chimney. Class 4 (old school), how about 8o feet of 5.6 with great exposure

Laurel Mountain NE Gully, class 4. There is plenty of 5th class on this 2,000+ foot route

Mt Farquhar. Any of the ridges, class 3. Yes, if you are solid 5th class climber. There is little if any 3rd on any of these.

Humor me and I will get really serious about problems with Sierra ratings. There are many examples.

Cheers, Alois.

jesu, joy of man's desiring wrote:Sure, this simkin fellow wandered off route by 9.7 inches (right) and in an adrenaline-fueled panic somehow blasted a 4 foot-long 5.14c boulder move above a 10ft ledge. His new route FA is thus Class 3, V11

haha.

asmrz wrote:North Ridge Lone Pine Peak. Rated 5.4, at least 5.7 if you find the easiest line

The lieback past the old pin is definitely harder than 5.4.

asmrz wrote:Lone Pine Peak-East Ridge. Rated 4th class, at least 5.6 by the easiest way.

There were lots of options on this one, but it definitely seemed harder than 4th.

asmrz wrote:Carl Heller East Ridge, 4th class. Pretty stout rating, especially in early season. The gully at the top retains ice till late July. Very sporting for 4th class. The short face above the notch is 5th class.

This one didn't seem so bad when dry.

asmrz wrote:Mt Clark NW Arete. Class 4 . Ask anyone who climbed the arete, there is 5.6 there and a lot of 4th.

I scrambled things I probably shouldn't have to get up this one.

asmrz wrote:N Palisade from the U Notch via the Chimney. Class 4 (old school), how about 8o feet of 5.6 with great exposure

I didn't think it was quite 5.6, but definitely more than solid 4th.

asmrz wrote:Laurel Mountain NE Gully, class 4. There is plenty of 5th class on this 2,000+ foot route

There might be a way to 4th-class this if you're lucky, but it's a crumbling wall of garbage.

asmrz wrote:Humor me and I will get really serious about problems with Sierra ratings. There are many examples.

Your examples seem to be routes that are "officially" rated one thing, but which you think should have higher ratings. That's not really what I was asking about. As you correctly noted in your earlier post, there's some subjectivity involved:

asmrz wrote:It really depends on who does the rating. Some of us find things harder and harder every year. Ratings stay the same, we don't.

But that's not the issue. I was specifically asking about this claim:

asmrz wrote:3rd class route in the Sierra can indeed have a move or two of 5.6.

Do you have examples of official class-3 routes -- which you also consider class-3 -- which have class-5+ moves that can't be bypassed while staying on route? A number of your examples reference ridges, but a ridge route doesn't necessarily mean staying on the very top of the ridge the entire time. For example, Secor's instructions for the NW Ridge of Farquhar state:

Take the right branch [of a chute] and follow it almost to the ridge crest. Go to the right onto a face and up to the summit.

So this "NW Ridge" route isn't actually on the ridge -- just in the vicinity of it. If the ridge crest itself is class-5, that is meaningless to this specific route's rating.

asmrz wrote:N Palisade from the U Notch via the Chimney. Class 4 (old school), how about 8o feet of 5.6 with great exposure

Here is what Summitpost actually say

Difficulty: 5.2-6

http://www.summitpost.org/u-notch-chimn ... ion/155564

And this is the only one of your examples that I checked (because I have the mountain in mind for my next climb and I immediately got suspicious).

I think I gave you some routes in the Sierra that have one rating in the Guide Books, but are a bit harder in the field. There are arguably many more. BTW Have you climbed any of them? How can you debate the issue if you didn't ??

The point is, that if you go into mountains with not enough ability and experience to be able to anticipate and overcome some difficulties as they come up (as the OP seem to experienced) you really are endangering yourself. My point in all this is, learn how to rock climb before you go to the mountains. The crag climbing game will give you a solid foundation for the many surprises you'll encounter in the mountain terrain. And if you don't want to be prepared for mountains or are unwilling to take the time, stick to hikes. That will hopefully ensure, you don't get the chop while scrambling up something that is a bit harder than you anticipated. Enough said.

Sean,
I should have known that the first response to my little list will be from someone who is probably the best of Sierra scramblers of the present day, and almost surely, the fastest one. I would bet anyone, that all of the climbs you commented on, were done by you without a rope and with only passing reference to a greater or lower difficulty. But bro, this little list was not meant for you, as appreciated as your notes are....

Cheers, Alois.

BTW Simkin, this is what Steve Larson, a very experienced climber and mountaineer says on the Summitpost page you mentioned, about the North Pal route in question

"On the right (west) side of the notch there is a steep wall with a crack/chimney system. Opinions differ on the difficulty of this section. Estimates range from Class 4 (old school) to 5.6 (grade inflation?). One thing is for sure, it will feel harder in mountaineering boots, and even harder if wet. Plan accordingly."

In a wonderful , even handed language, Steve tells you exactly what to expect.


If you read The guide book to High Sierra (any edition), the route is rated class 4.

Go do it and report on it for us. You'll find fifth class terrain on that section of the route. You don't need to trust me on this...

asmrz wrote:I think I gave you some routes in the Sierra that have one rating in the Guide Books, but are a bit harder in the field.

Right, which isn't what I was asking about.

asmrz wrote:BTW Have you climbed any of them? How can you debate the issue if you didn't ??

Because we're not debating what you seem to think we're debating. I asked you a specific question (twice) about your claim of class-3 routes supposedly requiring class-5+ moves. It peaked my interest because when I make my way out there, it's for solo class-3/4 scrambles, and ending up in class-5 terrain isn't something that interests me. In any case, if you misspoke, it's all good. I certainly wasn't attempting to debate that some routes may be harder than their ratings, or that climbing skills are a good thing to have before attempting Sierra scrambles.