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School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby Autoxfil » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:17 am

Option 2. It's much easier to leave the tag line in the bottom of the pack.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby mvs » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:57 am

Why not just descend the ascent route by leading down? Place gear, follower (probably should be the stronger climber) descends and cleans. This is a good reason to practice downclimbing.

If that sounds anything less than easy, then just bring double 60 meter ropes so you can make the 60 meter rappel.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby MoapaPk » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:32 pm

MVS, the deaths that occurred happened with people trying to downclimb the route. It's an odd mix of featureless volcanic rock, with lots of shallow, slanted mini-ledges, but no cracks on the lower (steeper) part, and lichen +/or thin ice to make things interesting. There are just 3 ancient bolts and hangers, and they are hard to pick out, as they have rusted to about the same color as the rock. Yet there is a very good anchor at the top.

I may be over-thinking this. Folks who've done this pitch tell me that other stuff we do is worse. I just don't like lichen-covered rock.

Anyway, it looks like the weight of 8.1 doubles is not that much greater than 8.0 twins, and I would never use dynamic rope enough to worry about abrasion. Setting up a pull cord can be a nasty business, so I'd have to be much more confident with that before I committed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16850087@N04/5405167335/
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby mvs » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:16 pm

MoapaPk wrote:MVS, the deaths that occurred happened with people trying to downclimb the route. It's an odd mix of featureless volcanic rock, with lots of shallow, slanted mini-ledges, but no cracks on the lower (steeper) part, and lichen +/or thin ice to make things interesting. There are just 3 ancient bolts and hangers, and they are hard to pick out, as they have rusted to about the same color as the rock. Yet there is a very good anchor at the top.

I may be over-thinking this. Folks who've done this pitch tell me that other stuff we do is worse. I just don't like lichen-covered rock.

Anyway, it looks like the weight of 8.1 doubles is not that much greater than 8.0 twins, and I would never use dynamic rope enough to worry about abrasion. Setting up a pull cord can be a nasty business, so I'd have to be much more confident with that before I committed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16850087@N04/5405167335/


Okay. Yeah (Shudder), just bring 2 ropes, easy-peasy.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby Fire4x4 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:14 pm

So where do half ropes fit in to all of this?
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby Dow Williams » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:41 pm

Halves and doubles are typically interchangeable terms when discussing climbing ropes, right or wrong by definition, it is just what has evolved within climber lingo. There are two different two rope systems with different pros and cons. Doubles (Halves) or Twins. Some ropes are rated to be used as either/or. Some are exclusive to either/or. If you are using ropes rated for both methods, one of the more critical pieces of information is that you do not switch between the two methods within the same pitch. This negates their function and safety.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby ExcitableBoy » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:47 pm

Dow Williams wrote:If you are using ropes rated for both methods, one of the more critical pieces of information is that you do not switch between the two methods within the same pitch. This negates their function and safety.

Good point, I did not know this.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby bearbreeder » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:36 am

mammuts take on it ... note that ALL their current half ropes have been tested as and can be used as twins

you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

<named removed<

Productmanager Climbing Equipment
Mammut Sports Group AG, Birren 5, CH-5703 Seon


also from steph davis blog ... mammut had this to say ...

In continental Europe, outside of a few areas, fewer people use half-rope technique--most people use their half ropes with Twin technique clipping both strands together—consequently most of the half ropes on the market will pass the test for both half and twin ropes, and this is common enough that it is assumed. All of Mammuts half ropes will also pass the twin rope test--here's what Mammut has to say about the subject in our rope booklet: "...here you have the choice between twin rope technique, where both ropes run parallel through the protection and half rope technique, where the «left» and «right» ropes run separately through different protection points...". (incidentally that is available here, there's some good info buried within... http://www.mammut.ch/images/Ma... ) Speaking only for Mammut, we generally don't certify our ropes to more than one standard because there is a very real concern that people make assumptions about a rope based on the fact that it is marketed differently, that often don’t really hold true. As an example, our Serenity 8.9mm single rope was initially introduced with both single and half rope specs and many people assumed that it was “more durable” than a thinner half rope, when the reality is that it was far less durable than our thinner Genesis 8.5mm rope—this was the subject of Steph's blog post here: http://www.highinfatuation.com... . In general we would rather steer people into using their ropes in the manner that will result in the greatest degree of utility for most people, which is why we have shied away from dual certifications like this. It isn't right or wrong, but my sincere belief is that more people wind up with a rope that better suits their needs as a result. Hopefully that adds a bit of perspective, but please fire away if it raises still other questions.


http://www.highinfatuation.com/blog/str ... not-twins/
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby Alex Wood » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:26 am

Great feedback on this thread! This website provides you with a visual aid in understanding Single, Double and Twin Ropes (which was key in helping me understand it). Other then that it pretty much summarizes what has been said already.

http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/howt ... ystems.asp
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby divnamite » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:01 pm

Aren't most double ropes have high impact force than singles? I read somewhere Will Gadd published some data from Sterling about this.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby ExcitableBoy » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:43 pm

divnamite wrote:Aren't most double ropes have high impact force than singles? I read somewhere Will Gadd published some data from Sterling about this.

Twins have the highest impact force
Singles the next highest
Halves/doubles the lowest

Dow, did I get that right?
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby Dow Williams » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:52 pm

ExcitableBoy wrote:
divnamite wrote:Aren't most double ropes have high impact force than singles? I read somewhere Will Gadd published some data from Sterling about this.

Twins have the highest impact force
Singles the next highest
Halves/doubles the lowest

Dow, did I get that right?


Typically, yes. However, when doubles are treated as twins....they are typically less dynamic than true twins, which in turn creates more stress on pro. Why most of us simply avoid that situation. Using doubles as doubles is really safe and preferred for large trad routes. On traverses, they should be treated as twins however to prevent huge swings for the 2nd and 1st and to avoid one rope dipping low and catching a feature between climbers. Don't know if it is an English translation problem regarding what was written above or what....but none of us will use both the double rope and twin rope technique in the same pitch of climbing. I consider this quite unsafe when analyzing what forces could be in effect during a fall.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby divnamite » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:49 pm

I'm aware of twin has the highest impact, but my understanding is that double is tested with 50kg weight instead of 80kg. If you alternate clip every pieces of pro, then the test is valid. Personally, I never could alternate clips unless it's a straight up route.
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby jrisku » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:47 pm

There's plenty of good answers here already. Thought to throw in my five cents as well in any case. :-) So I'm half rope man, especially on ice --> So, light, low impact force half ropes for me. :-) Longer rappels, generally speaking lighter weight and greater possibilities on varied routes (without serious rope drag). I actually wrote more precisely about my opinion of different rope systems (and ropes) on ice climbing, you'd might want to check it as well.

Someone mentioned the multiple standards ropes. There are actually several of them, though I don't typically consider them as an option, due to higher impact forces and weight... while as a single they're fairly okay, there are lighter and lower impact force options in "plain singles". Finally for those of you who're interested of specifications, we've put together a database of ropes: Single (>160 differnt), Half (>60 different) and Twin (almost 30 different).
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Re: School me on Twin vs Double Ropes

Postby divnamite » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:17 pm

OK. I found the article about the impact force. It seems lesser impact force on double rope is not really true. Take all articles with a grain of salt.

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2006/11/ ... es_30.html
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