V-Thread Questions

[Kai]

I've made a few V-Threads. I've always used 5mil cord, tied with a double fisherman's knot.

I'm curious if there are ways to avoid leaving the cord in the V-Thread.

Do some folks just thread a rope through the hole? Seems like it would work with skinny twin ropes. Biggest risk I can think of is if the rope is wet and freezes into the hole.

What about a set up designed to retrieve the V-thread cord when you pull the ropes down?

Is there a way to rig the thread so that it comes down with the ropes? I've been noodling this out in my head, and don't see an obvious way, but I may be overlooking something.


Also, I completely suck at spatial relations. I am terrible at estimating the correct distance and angle needed. The new BD First Shot tool looks like it might be useful for someone like me who typically takes several tries to get it right. Has anyone used this tool? What are your impressions?

[Nikolas_A]

Is there a way to rig the thread so that it comes down with the ropes? I've been noodling this out in my head, and don't see an obvious way, but I may be overlooking something.

There is, but it's sketchy. I'd only use it if all else had failed.
I'll try to find a photo but it goes like this:

-You thread the cord loop through the V-thread
-You clip a carabiner on one end and clip the ropes in it
-You use the tail of one rope as a stopper for the other end

If all works, your weight on the rope tries to pull the cord through the V-thread but the tail stops it. When you're down, you pull the right rope until it frees the cord, then pull both ropes to clear the cord from the V-thread.

(Don't use all the length of your ropes, tie them on your next belay before you pull)

[rhyang]

Also, I completely suck at spatial relations. I am terrible at estimating the correct distance and angle needed. The new BD First Shot tool looks like it might be useful for someone like me who typically takes several tries to get it right. Has anyone used this tool? What are your impressions?

Haven't used it myself. The way I was taught was to drill the first hole, then put another screw partway in so that you can aim for it while drilling the second. That method works great for me.

But I can imagine the first shot thingy would help a lot at the end of the day when you are cold & tired. Some opinions over on mountainproject from last winter -

http://mountainproject.com/v/ice_climbi ... 6603951__1

[Nikolas_A]

Which hole do you make first? If you're right handed it's best to start with the left, the right will be easier to control and correct.

[brokesomeribs]

d threads r better anyways

Huh?

[welle]

d threads yea they recone there stronger a d thread is when u put your v thread vertically

I think they're called A threads in the States.

[pvalchev]

I've been directly threading the rope for a long time now. Except for when the ice is visibly wet, when I'm afraid the rope will freeze - but in dry conditions, just thread the rope!
- Stronger (the climbing rope is stronger than thin cord people use, one less knot to fail, etc)
- Easier to pull - there is virtually no friction when you pull over ice, instead of cord.
- Better on the environment - when you hike up Planter's Valley in the Ghost in the summer to go rock climb, you pass lots of old cord in the creek from the winter raps.. ugly sight.
- Best, cheaper and less stuff to carry

Like you said, the only cons is rope potentially freezing - but I doubt this would happen unless it's -30 and the ice is wet... easy to just use cord in that situation.

[sharperblue]

i've heard that vertical V-threads/Abakalovs are stronger than horizontal placements as well - is there anything out there to support this, or is it all just hear-say?

[pvalchev]

That's the first time I ever heard of someone not wanting to rap off a single abalakov! I've *never* seen someone leave a biner... after having done hundreds of rappels on ice - and that seems ridiculous, I'm sorry. In real life, I see people rappel on abalakovs built weeks ago that have been 60% or more melted through, sometimes a nest of 3 of them, equalized like you describe... pulling through webbing directly that has been weakened by repeated pulls. This is more dangerous than building a brand new one and just rapping off of that single one. To each their own though!

When rapping off a single abakalov (or ever) you always do a back-up with an ice screw for the first person (not load bearing) - and the heavier guy goes first. This discussion assumes you're on good ice - if you're not, you shouldn't be rapping period, even if it's off of 5 points with 10 biners. Remember that speed is safety in the mountains, too.

[welle]

i've heard that vertical V-threads/Abakalovs are stronger than horizontal placements as well - is there anything out there to support this, or is it all just hear-say?

There was a study last year published by AMGA about the strength of rebored ice screws etc. - it had also studied V-threads. You can find the PDF document in this article: http://www.rock-ice.com/index.php?optio ... 1&Itemid=1

[bdynkin]

Same here - thank you welle, great artcle (http://strikerescue.com/file_download/16).

To OP: BTW, from these tests shown on Figure 8 it seems that 7-mil cord produced weaker v-threads compared to 1-inch tubular. Probably due to larger surface area that contacts the ice? Less local stress? Does it mean that 5-mil cord that you favor would be even weaker? Something to think about...
It was also nice to learn (for those weaklings like me) that re-bored screws are generally fine.

[sharperblue]

What are you all talking about? Can someone translate for us aspiring ice climbers?

And someone text the guy in New Zealand and tell him to speak English.

a V-Thread (or Abakalov thread) is a type of belay/rap anchor built into water ice, so that the climber(s) don't have to use (or potentially leave) screws or other protection in-place. they are incredibly strong if properly constructed in good ice. the discussion off-railed into whether vertically or horizontally-built versions are stronger. here ya go:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/c ... c30119a921

[Brad Marshall]

What are you all talking about? Can someone translate for us aspiring ice climbers?

And someone text the guy in New Zealand and tell him to speak English.

a V-Thread (or Abakalov thread) is a type of belay/rap anchor built into water ice, so that the climber(s) don't have to use (or potentially leave) screws or other protection in-place. they are incredibly strong if properly constructed in good ice. the discussion off-railed into whether vertically or horizontally-built versions are stronger. here ya go:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/c ... c30119a921

Thanks for posting the link. There is so much interesting history in this sport.

[Damien Gildea]

Joe Puryear and Dave Gottlieb have been descending their mountain routes (Kang Nachugo, Jobo Ribjang, Takargo etc) by threading the rope directly through the Abalakov, no cord/tape. Less rubbish left on the hill. Less stuff to carry.

There's a useful discussion at: http://mountainz.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=871

Aside from the re-boring question, was interesting to see the superiority of tape over cord (maybe obvious, but not previously proven) and the importance of the strength of the ice above the holes, not the ice below the holes, as many of us were taught years ago.

D

[sharperblue]

What are you all talking about? Can someone translate for us aspiring ice climbers?

And someone text the guy in New Zealand and tell him to speak English.

a V-Thread (or Abakalov thread) is a type of belay/rap anchor built into water ice, so that the climber(s) don't have to use (or potentially leave) screws or other protection in-place. they are incredibly strong if properly constructed in good ice. the discussion off-railed into whether vertically or horizontally-built versions are stronger. here ya go:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/c ... c30119a921

Thanks for posting the link. There is so much interesting history in this sport.

you know you've arrived when you get the title "Honored Master of Alpinism" - how awesome is that?