RMI recommends down parka for Rainier DC climb. thoughts?

[owenel]

i've seen comments from those who recommend a down parka and comments from those who recommend a synthetic parka. RMI's literature unequivocally recommends a down parka for their 4-day climb. I'm leaning toward buying down (in particular, the rab neutrino) Anyone have strong opinions one way or the other? My rainier trip is early May.

[96avs01]

If you wind up going with a RAB Neutrino, I've got a size L Neutrino Endurance in blue that's new without tags. Bought it a couple years back and haven't needed it so unloading it for $275 shipped.

[ExcitableBoy]

I've been climbing in the PNW for 25 years. I haven't owned a down garment in 15 years. Think of it is this way, when you need your insulation to work the most (e.g. in shitty weather) down will fail. In 'dry' ranges like the Alaska Range down makes sense. In the wet PNW, Primaloft or similar is a far more conservative choice. Peter Whittaker also personally told me they preferred to hire their guides with no climbing experience, so, there you go.

[owenel]

15 years is a long time for down waterproofing tech to improve. That technology would have been comparatively nonexistent last time you owned down. It's pretty evident down is still not as good as synthetic for water resistance but the water resistant down appears to be significantly better than regular down in that regard. For what it's worth img recommend either down or synthetic. I'm also looking at the outdoor research perch primaloft gold jacket. I might just buy both and wait for the weather forecast. Because I'm going to Bolivia in August.

But the fact that you've been using synthetic for that long without complaints is very useful to know thanks. That's what i was hoping to hear.

I guess having both is best.

[rgg]

15 years is a long time for down waterproofing tech to improve. That technology would have been comparatively nonexistent last time you owned down. It's pretty evident down is still not as good as synthetic for water resistance but the water resistant down appears to be significantly better than regular down in that regard. For what it's worth img recommend either down or synthetic. I'm also looking at the outdoor research perch primalift gold jacket. I might just buy both and wait for the weather forecast. Because I'm going to Bolivia in August.

Bolivia in August? Down is the way to go then. Staying warm is what matters, no need to worry about rain. It's the dry season. And if there is a little bit of precipitation high up in the mountains, it will be snow.

[owenel]

Thanks. Any down jacket recommendation? I'm liking the rab for its water resistance (and relative stylishness for street use). But was also looking at montbell Alpine light.

[ExcitableBoy]

15 years is a long time for down waterproofing tech to improve. That technology would have been comparatively nonexistent last time you owned down. It's pretty evident down is still not as good as synthetic for water resistance but the water resistant down appears to be significantly better than regular down in that regard.

I've specifically asked about the new water resistant down in forums like this, and the feedback has been uninspiring. Basically the word on the street is that at first it works great, then not so much. I specifically sold off my Alaska and cold weather kit, but I am planning on a trip to Bolivia in the next couple of years. I've kept my eyes peeled for a good deal at Sierra Trading Post for a down jacket. If you are going to a 'dry' range, down is the shit. PNW is a decidedly wet place.

[owenel]

Cool based on all the comments here i think i will just buy both. I considered the das parka but i find the outdoor research one a little more street stylish and it has more primaloft gold.

The next thing i need to figure out is a midlayer. I'm partial to outdoor research because it fits me well (unlike Patagonia and north face) and i have the ferrosi but I've seen an additional polartec midlayer recommended. I wonder if anyone has recs on the outdoor research centrifuge or transition hoodies?

[ExcitableBoy]

Cool based on all the comments here i think i will just buy both. I considered the das parka but i find the outdoor research one a little more street stylish and it has more primaloft gold.

The next thing i need to figure out is a midlayer. I'm partial to outdoor research because it fits me well (unlike Patagonia and north face) and i have the ferrosi but I've seen an additional polartec midlayer recommended. I wonder if anyone has recs on the outdoor research centrifuge or transition hoodies?

I have a Wild Things Belay parka, which is similarly warm as the Patagonia DAS (both have 180 grams of Primaloft). Both are a LOT of parka. On Denali, it was -30 F at the 17k camp overnight. On summit day, the Belay Parka was too warm to wear while climbing. I think if you are going somewhere cold enough for a DAS or similar weight parka then it will likely be dry as well, and you would be better served by a lighter and more compressible high quality down parka.

I like Outdoor Research and they fit me well, as does Patagonia. TNF seems like they tailor their garments like circus tents. I have made this recommendation time and time again; stretch woven softshell jackets are great for riding the bus to work and for lift serviced skiing, however, there are other, more useful mid layers for backcountry use. My personal favorite is the Marmot DriClime windshirt. It sheds wind, light precip, breathes well, is warm for its weight, and makes a good mid layer because its face fabric slides against the other layers. I haven't used, but have looked at PolarTec Alpha insulated mid layers. They are supposed to be more breathable than Primaloft. Another thought is a 60 gram Primaloft vest as a mid layer. Something along the lines of a Patagonia Nanopuff. Lots of options out there.

[triyoda]

I've been climbing in the PNW for 25 years. I haven't owned a down garment in 15 years. Think of it is this way, when you need your insulation to work the most (e.g. in shitty weather) down will fail. In 'dry' ranges like the Alaska Range down makes sense. In the wet PNW, Primaloft or similar is a far more conservative choice. Peter Whittaker also personally told me they preferred to hire their guides with no climbing experience, so, there you go.

They have waterproof down now, its not 15 years ago. Down is not perfect, but it packs way better. Let's be honest, if it warm enough to rain (down would get wet), you shouldn't need much of an insulating layer, so you wouldn't even take your down out, you could use a lighter synthetic layer. Down is for hunkering down when its really cold, not when its raining. Likewise, if you are doing a guided trip on DC, I would trust the advice of your guide over someone on this message board; the guide's livelihood actually depends on you enjoying the experience and getting home safe.

I'm also not sure I understand how RMI hiring policies have an impact on garment selection?

[owenel]

Thanks. Yeah i had checked Alan arnette's blog. It's a great source of info. I think I've already decided to buy a down jacket. It's something i would use on a daily basis in the winter anyway. I guess the question is whether i want to spend money on a synthetic jacket i only plan to use in the Cascades.

[ExcitableBoy]

They have waterproof down now, its not 15 years ago. Down is not perfect, but it packs way better. Let's be honest, if it warm enough to rain (down would get wet), you shouldn't need much of an insulating layer, so you wouldn't even take your down out, you could use a lighter synthetic layer. Down is for hunkering down when its really cold, not when its raining. Likewise, if you are doing a guided trip on DC, I would trust the advice of your guide over someone on this message board; the guide's livelihood actually depends on you enjoying the experience and getting home safe.

I'm also not sure I understand how RMI hiring policies have an impact on garment selection?

My point is that it doesn't need to be raining for down to get wet. The humidity of the ambient air is sufficient to wet out a down garment, not to mention putting it on at rest breaks and getting wet from perspiration. I suspect if you had much experience climbing, then you would know that. Knowing who RMI hires as their guides, I would not trust their advice. The OP specifically asked for recommendations from this board for a second opinion. Also, from the users I have heard from, waterproof down isn't.

[owenel]

It's interesting that people refer to down when they're talking about survival. I would have thought down was a luxury for when conditions are just right for down whereas synthetic is your survival safety net. Also seems like there is an argument for bringing both if you can find a down jacket less than a pound anyway.

[asmrz]

Down is tricky and alpine conditions can be too. I have spent a few days in the mountains and the only places I used down jacket was Alaska in April and Nepal above 7.000 meters and even then, I barely used it outside of the tent. Even in summer, in the dry Sierra Nevada, down has a limited use. Just one extended thunderstorm and one is spending 100% time protecting the garment from water, not wearing it.

Mt Rainier and down? Like tennis shoes on a glacier?

Can I call it inappropriate gear?

Buy some good synthetic parka or a good quality expedition thickness pile and be prepared for the worst conditions mountains can offer.

The reason for recommending down parka on guided climbs of Rainier in summer might be that if/when the weather turns, guided parties usually turn around so the down parka is truly used only for warmth and comfort in somewhat controlled environment. Cannot think of any other reason why guiding company in Washington state would recommend it..